New Tolkien book coming!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It also says that both were gathered by hand, and no metal tools were used in the process. You can't do this with maize, trust me; those stalks are brutally thick. And the "haulm" or leftover stalks is nowhere close to white, but a muddy yellowish brown, and useless for straw much less hay. Farmers plow it under.

Excellent; at least that (unfortunately early) source is conclusive! (I wonder if there's "divine wheat" in some Norse myth or something? Scandinavia apparently has several traditional flatbreads, which were sometimes the only meal of the day, so it's a possible inspiration.)

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

As to "kind": Maddeningly vague. But it doesn't have to mean species; a Chihuahua is a different "kind" of dog from a Great Dane.

Absolutely. But the Biblical use of "kind" stems (partly?) from the Noah story, in which it's hard to imagine God insisting that Noah take 7/2 of every breed of dog! So yeah, it's tempting, but not conclusive.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Personally I would be very surprised that an Englishman of Tolkien's generation, who never traveled, would have even had a notion that Indian corn was a foodstuff, at least for civilized peoples: as far as he would have been concerned it was merely fodder, only eaten by animals, Red Indians, Americans and other foreign barbarians.

"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(Much more interesting would be to read T's account of how taters got to Middle-earth)

"Taters of Middle-earth", coming from the files of Carl F. Hostetter 2023.

(Potatoes, tobacco, and tomatoes are all nightshades, right? Probably the Numenoreans imported all three - potatoes in particular are an amazing food-crop, and while tomatoes only have a tentative existence in M-e they're no more out of place. It seems like all three were mostly found only around the Shire, so it would only take a local outbreak of some virulant tobacco mosaic strain to wipe them from the continent. Bonus points if we can make athelas a nightshade too!)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

As for taters: there is however a strong hint in the Narn that potatoes were native to M-E, since it seems that that's what Mim's "earth-bread" was.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

It is, of course - genus Nicotiana is in the family Solanaceae, AKA the nightshades. It isn't a Solanum or Atropa, though. But until Hostetter brings out the long lost Tolkien Botanical Collection, I don't suppose it really matters. ^_^

Sticking with the plants... NoME "Of the Lands and Beasts of Numenor" describes the trees of both Beleriand (hornbeam, small maple, flowering chestnut) and Numenor (wych-elm, holm-oak, tall maple, sweet chestnut, walnut). Was Tolkien just naming random trees, or are these geographically varied in their natural state?

hS

[Huinesoron]

NOME 3.II "The Primal Impulse" is something of a delight. As a chemist I'm delighted to see Tolkien's thoughts on, essentially, the Big Bang and the philosophy of matter, but as always, the best stuff is in the trivia:

- The Valar refuse to admit that Eru has added anything to the world other than the Children, but the Eldar disagree. "Some of these things that appear suddenly in History and [?continue] then in obedience to Eä (or soon cease to be [?seen]) may indeed be due directly to Eru. (These things are called the signs of the Finger of Eru.)"

- In a discussion of matings between Elves and Men: "this has rarely been done, and as for the High Elves, the Eldar, only twice. In Middle-earth, unless tales be now [? [I wonder if this is 'lost']] thrice: Beren/Luthien, Idril/Tuor, Ancestors of Imrahil. " So yes, that's direct confirmation that there are probably more Half-Elves outside the North-West!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

[Galin]

Perhaps Tolkien had recently read Appendix F concerning what Eldar meant

Even Christopher Tolkien seems to have been paying Appendix F its due when compiling his "List Of Names In The Tale Of The Children Of Húrin":

"Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."

Pretty much agrees with Tolkien's published -- never revised -- Eldar: Elves of the Great Journey Over Sea > plus the Sindar "only" -- or "West-Elves" (compare "to Beleriand").

Of course in his introduction to COH, Christopher Tolkien makes the distinction between Eldar and Avari, where his father's distinction in the Appendix was between West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves, in any case. But even so, The Children of Húrin entry for Eldar is, for me, interestingly different from the constructed Silmarillion entry, and the chart (The Sundering Of The Elves), which reflect posthumously published ideas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.

hS

Let's rephrase that: was not at all traveled as an adult, that is after his war service in France. He only got a passport in 1949, needing it to go to Dublin as an examiner. He never again left the British Isles, save one vac. in Italy with Priscilla in the 50s, and an overnighter to Rotterdam for a "Hobbit-feast" in his honor. Neither country eats Indian corn, (not then, anyway).