Balrog and The One Ring

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The most relevant passage about Sauron's attitude to Morgoth after the First Age is to be found in Morgoth's Ring:

This has always suggested to me that Sauron advocated Melkor-worship in Númenor out of opportunism and pragmatism, not genuine belief. As a hostage and prisoner in Númenor it would have been very unlikely that he could have put forward himself as their new religious figure and be successful, but he can put forward someone else, one about whom the Eldar had perhaps rarely spoken, and perhaps therefore appeared to be "forbidden" (and thus appealing) in the lore of Númenor which, by then, had been estranged from the Eldar and Valar for some time.

I do not think that being a Cynical Opportunist and a True Believer are necessarily exclusive qualities.

It was the very passage you quoted that led me to think that Sauron would not surrender his loyalties to Morgoth so easily.

But that is really tangential to my main point regarding the One Ring and the Balrog. I will return to that later.

My point with Sauron is that his motivations were different than the Balrogs, as well as he was still the Balrog's "Boss" as it were.

I do admit that Sauron's depictions, and motivations, goals, desires seem to have shifted, and developed as Tolkien conceived Middle-earth.

But the ONE THING that informs all of my suspicions about Middle-earth involves a Unifying Metaphysics and thus Physics (How things "work"). As this was said by CJRT to be what caused JRR Tolkien to fail at completing The Silmarillion, and the earlier myths.

From The History of Middle-earth, Vol. X: Morgoth's Ring, pp. x - xi:

Meditating long on the world that he had brought into being and was now in part unveiled, he had become absorbed in analytic speculation concerning its underlying postulates. before he could prepare a final and new Silmarillion he must satisfy the requirements of a coherent theological and metaphysical system, rendered now more complex in its presentation by the supposition of obscure and conflicting elements in its roots and its tradition.

And the issue of the One Ring is something that would need to be more adequately defined under such a system before we could know whether it would indeed have the same effects upon the Balrog that it had for others.

Note that not all Maia sought to possess the Ring, as they understood the dangers involved. And this might well apply to a creature who was Evil, recognizing that the One Ring might not help said creature as much in its own possession

As for other places, it seems as if Sauron tended to be worshipped as a god himself. Professor Tolkien observes in Letter 131 that Sauron's empire, even in the Second Age (before he went to Númenor in fact), was an "evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves)". He also appears, according to The Lord of the Rings, to have been worshipped by the Black Númenóreans in some parts and/or at some, possibly later, times: "they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge."

We also know, however, that "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." (Letter 183) This suggests to me the possibility that Sauron exploited Men's uncertainty about who or what their dark god actually was in order to conflate himself with that person; it seems possible to me that some Men at least did not know that there was any difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Sauron, however, "demanded divine honour from all rational creatures", which suggests to me that he ultimately wished for himself, not Morgoth, to be worshipped as a god, and that he only used Morgoth's legacy when it enabled his own power to do so. According to Morgoth's Ring, he may actually have seen Morgoth as a failure after the First Age, not an object of worthy veneration:
"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

I should point out, however, that this is something of a later character development. In the original Númenor story composed in the early 1930s, at the time of The Lost Road and before any other aspects of the history of the Second Age were invented (and before the Third Age was invented at all), Sauron did not have this personal agenda; he's actually more like a puppet of Morgoth's will, or at least receiving instructions from Morgoth from afar. In this period Sauron appears to have been conceived of more as Morgoth's representative; in the later developments of the narrative Morgoth no longer seems to have much capacity, if any, to instruct or communicate with his former servants from the Void, and Sauron takes on the role of a replacement with his own, separate ambitions.

As for the Balrog, I don't recall any material in The Treason of Isengard or elsewhere which speculates too heavily on the nature of the Balrog, although I think there is speculation, abandoned in later re-drafting, that it might have served Sauron. I'll have to check later. Just wanted to get the "How sincerely did Sauron worship Morgoth?" discussion out while it was fresh in my mind.

(Grrrrr..... Had an entire paragraph eaten by my cat...)

The issue of how Faithful Sauron is is secondary to how faithful the Balrogs remained, or at least that was my intention.

From Morgoth's Ring, p. 165:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendor in the days of his greatness, and remained in allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukir, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called Balrogs, demons of terror.

The Actual text of LQ 2 my father amended at this time very hastily to read:

These were the (ëaler) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days. . . .

This is from work Tolkien created regarding the Earlier Days of Middle-earth after his completion of The Lord of the Rings but prior to its publication.

And it seems to indicate that the Balrogs would have remained very faithful to Morgoth. My personal take on this is that this means they would have remained faithful to the AUTHORITY of Morgoth as well, and Morgoth appointed Sauron as his chief Lieutenant.

We do have Archetypes and Myths for demons who betray such authority and loyalty to Evil; as many as those who retain loyalty and authority to Evil.

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

And... I do not think that the One Ring would have the same kind of effect upon the Balrogs as they had upon Mortals, or upon those who Lust for Power.

The Balrogs are not an Archetype of Lust, nor of Power. They are an Archetype of Violence, Fear, and Terror. They are an Archetype of a Display of Power, much like a terrible or horrific weapon, which has little Will of its own, but rather takes its will from the designated Authority.

Notice that in all the Thousands of Years the Balrog sat beneath the Three Peaks of Moria that it not once acted to establish any sort of dominion. It merely reacted when it was threatened, or encroached upon.

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

As I have rambled enough here.... My point, overall is that the Balrog cannot be expected to behave like Mortals, or like other Maiar who retain their intact Will (Capital-W). And thus outside of an operationalized definition of the Properties of the One Ring it is very difficult to know how it would react.

I have simply spelled out my own suspicions, and what evidence I believe supports them; right-or-wrong.

MB

[Zigûr]

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

"One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control."

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

The Quote of Tolkien regarding the "Weakening" of Morgoth is something that I was taking into consideration.

Also, I do not mean to imply that "Robotic" means "Without Will."

I used the term without giving thought to the audience. I am used to using the term with an audience for whom the word (Robotic) has a very different meaning than typically used. I defined it in my previous post, as being Rigorously Faithful to a set of Operational Principles (be that an Optimization Function of some sort, or some other directive).

And the episode at the end of The Lord of the Rings needs to be informed by the fact that this failure of their "Will" was not complete, or permanent. Nor was Sauron completely destroyed (as only Eru can do that). Sauron was simply "dispersed" by the Valar to prevent him from remaining as a coherent Will and Force of Evil.

Elessar still had to spend years eliminating pockets of Organized Resistance from the remnants of Orcs and other creatures serving Sauron.

The sudden chaos among Sauron's servants seems to be more likely due to Shock of the loss of Will, which, like any Shock, would recover somewhat after a time.

And... Recall that Morgoth's Will is not completely absent from Middle-earth. His Will is a part of the very Fabric of Middle-earth, as the result of Arda Marred.

But that Will is very much diminished, which could account for the Balrog's lack of any drive to act.

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

My suspicion is that the Balrog would remain Faithful to Morgoth, and thus to Sauron, who was Morgoth's recognized subordinate and proxy.

At least the Balrog would do so as long as it perceived Sauron to be remaining Faithful to Morgoth, which is a point of contention.

Was Sauron acting solely cynically and opportunistically in spreading Morgothism?

Or did he still genuinely revere Morgoth as the Rightful Lord and God of Arda?

Or was he doing both?

Perhaps Sauron was just having a "Crisis of Faith" due to the setbacks of his Master, and that had Smaug, and the Balrog managed to be rallied to his side, he would have again acted in the name of Morgoth, rather than in his own right.

Also, a point I missed earlier....

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Especially in light of how those (horrific) movies portrayed the One Ring.

While the One Ring is especially important to the Mythology of the Later Ages of Middle-earth, and is incredibly powerful in Light of the remaining "Powers" within Middle-earth, it should pale in comparison to Morgoth, even diminished.

It is sort of like the difference between a gun, and the tide of the ocean.

Sauron's Ring is like a Gun, capable of putting extreme power into the hands of a single person.

While Morgoth's power is like that of the tides of the ocean: Vast, and immense beyond compare to the power of the Gun; capable of re-shaping the world itself, and moving continents, given the time.

With the gun you can point it at people, and use it to Dominate to your will those so threatened. Yet one who controlled the tides could lay waste to entire regions of the Earth.

MB

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

There are more than a few commentaries that point out that Sauron was always the more proactive of the characters.

Tom Shippey even goes as far as to say that it might have actually been Sauron who ran the nuts-and-bolts operations of Morgoth; that Morgoth was so consumed by Rage and Hatred that it caused an almost paralysis, and that it was left to Sauron to conduct the day-to-day business.

I also read a paper that suggested it was Sauron who did the actual work of "corrupting" the Elves and Humans to create Orcs, and Dragons (and other monsters) from the pre-existing creatures or beings of Arda. I found it to be pretty convincing.

But I still don't think that is contradictory to having Sauron remain Faithful to Morgoth.

As Tolkien points out, Sauron is well aware of the cosmology of Arda, and as such would know that ultimately his goals were only possible because of Morgoth's Rebellion; that ultimately his own power(s) were caught up in the existence of Morgoth.

Unfortunately, though, this is largely a narrative issue which Tolkien did not address (Curses!!!), and in terms of the unfolding of Plot, there exist many different interpretations that could be taken.

Where I disagree with Sauron "rebelling" against Morgoth is that it is hung too closely upon Saruman's Rebellion from the Istari, and thus the theme that so many have of Evil being its own Undoing.

That is a theme that largely exists in only one place (The Lord of the Rings), and in a character who has a very conflicted loyalty and set of goals (The goals for Saruman remain the same, they just become perverted by his study of evil). Sauron himself isn't conflicted in that regard, and his goals remain the same goals they have been pretty much since the First Age, if not before. Any "perversion" of Sauron occurred in the countless millennia prior to the Third Age, and we see no deviation from his prior goals.

I just think people are too quick to make everything an "Evil being its own undoing" event, when those were rare exceptions and not the rule (which was that Evil makes things vastly worse than they were previously).

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

Again.... I think that is looking too hard for an "Evil is its own undoing" moment. That Morgoth was consumed by his Hatred and Rage is something we have no shortage of evidence for (and thus was usually a malevolent force off-stage). Even Tolkien comments on this at multiple points.

But Morgoth never became impotent, even when thrust outside of the Circles of the World. Tolkien points out that he retained an ability to influence the World to Evil, just by his Shadow and Thought.

MB

[Kuruharan]

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action. How would the Balrog of Moria have fled in the first place if it had no independent will? I think the impression of "roboticness" on the part of the Balrogs is mostly a result of the comparative abstractness of the Sil, where only a select few personalities are explored in detail, and the fact that the Balrog of Moria never spoke in its confrontation with Gandalf.

All of Morgoth's servants we come into detailed contact with have at least some degree of free will. Why would Balrogs differ in this regard?

Clearly, to a large extent the motivations of the Balrog of Moria were different from the norm of Evil, but it was operating on incomplete information.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

I agree with Zigûr.

How legitimate would the Balrog have viewed Sauron as being the proxy for Morgoth? Especially since the Balrog would know that Sauron was lying about being Morgoth Returned and could not possibly be taken in by this deceit. Also note, Sauron abandoned his service to Morgoth before the end of the First Age, presumably vacating his place as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. The Balrog would undoubtedly be aware of this betrayal. Why would the Balrog respect Sauron as Morgoth's proxy in light of these things?

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

The Ring always wins unless it is destroyed.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

MB

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

Yes... Quite likely.

But.... Does that mean he would not try?

As I already indicated... I don't think the Balrog would have left Moria, even if it possessed the One Ring.

But then that damned Ring of Sauron's seems to be the source of so much contention and strife. And not just in Middle-earth. It seems that even in our world the One Ring is the source of a sizable amount of strife and conflict among wound-be allies.

MB

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action.

Good, because no one has argued that.


MB