Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

All of this bring up an interesting field for speculation. When Denethor views the Black Ships sailing up the Anduin in the Palantir, how much exactly did he see, or more to the point, if Sauron is controlling what the Palantir shows him by this point what exactly is he showing Denethor? Objectively, it is reasonable to assume Denethor saw exactly what he claimed to have seen, black ships sailing up the Anduin, and interpreted it (perfectly logically, given the circumstances) as meaning the Corsairs were sailing up from Umbar to Join the battle on Sauron's side. In and of itself this would be perfectly good reason to break down (especially since it would mean Lebennen would be enemy controlled by now, and Minas Tirith now more or less wholly surrounded with no way to flee left. But , given the kind of man Denethor is, I wonder if at this point Sauron, despairing with breaking him for good by displays of Mordor's might might, and havin some idea of how Denthor thinks. have tried a new tactic, one that actually worked, namely playing into Denthor's nature by letting (or making) him see what is ACTUALLY happening i.e letting him seen Aragorn routing the Corsairs and setting sail. By doing this he would basically be showing Denthor that, even if he could repulse Mordor's army, he would STILL "lose everything"; the king was coming back. I Denethor saw the Dead Men obeying Aragorn/Thorongil's orders, he would no longer have any doubts that Aragorn was the King, and any hopes he might of had of disputing the claim post battle would have evaporated. Objectively, Sauron probably knows that in the long run, while Denthor's death would weaken Minas Tirith, it alone could not make the city simply fall; that there would be others to take over command, that the Men of Rohan would be arriving at Pellenor soon, and (eventually) Aragorn himself was showing up and what that would likely mean. On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure. I'm not all that confident Sauron would be that subtle at this point, but it Occurs to me that, from Denthor's POV, Aragorn's coming is as much "destruction" as the Corsairs.

Interesting.

This raises another point in my mind.

Did Sauron actually know that Aragorn had captured the Corsair ships?

It would seem at least at the battle of Pellenor Field, that his troops were wholly unprepared. If Sauron had known, he could have anticipated Aragaorn's arrival by deploying his troops differently. Surely he could have sent a Nazgul to get the message there in time?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

Did Sauron actually know that Aragorn had captured the Corsair ships?

I think Sauron did not know. His attention seems to have been so focused on Minas Tirith that he was blind to all else. He knew of Aragorn, of course, but he would have been forgiven for naturally assuming Aragorn would immediately head for Minas Tirith to rally forces against him.

[Alfirin]

I suppose it all really hinges on just how Sauron viewed the Corsairs. As I mentioned earlier, he might have considered them particularly elite servants given the strong streak of Black Numenorian blood in them i.e. one of his most beloved. At bare minimum he presumably would have had a messenger sent in order to tell them that the march on Minas Tirith was finally a go and to muster the ships and sail hence. Unless Sauron did not feel such a message would be necessary; that the Corsairs would sail to Minas Tirith of their own accord, either in their hatred of Gondor, their loyalty to him, or their desire to take advantage of the battle to do a little sacking and plundering of their avowed enemy.
Assuming he DID send a message to them, it would seem a bit odd to me that he would not take a quick peek to see how close his Black Armada was to actually making it to the battlefield. Even if HE didn't whoever was in charge at the time (be it the witch king, Gothmog, or some other lesser general responsible for coordinating the forces) would presumably have been appraised that reinforcements for their side were on the way. Especially after the Rohirrim arrive, since such a message might re-hearten Sauron's troops (however much Sauron may have relied on his troops fighting to the death out of fear of him, or because he could sort of puppet them (I'm thinking of the Trolls here.) there are presumably SOME officers among them (probably mostly men) whose battle tactics are a little more complex than "we have the numbers, meele randomly until we out swarm them. If your army is going to use trebuchets, battering rams and cavalry (not to mention barrusry) you sort of have to).
So while I agree that it would be logical of Sauron to assume Aragorn would make straight for Minas Tirith, I also think that for him to NOT know what Aragorn did, requires him to be either SO focused on the battlefield neither he nor anyone below him is checking on the locations of the various armies under his banner, or of Sauron seeing the ships and making the exact same error we are supposed to believe Denethor made; that they really ARE the Corsairs.
I think he probably DID know, but was so confident in his superior power to assume that a little company of Rangers (even one headed by someone he was as concerned about as Aragorn) would not be enough to turn the tide, that either he would have taken the city by then, and Aragorn would sail up to a Minas Tirith already fallen, or if he didn't that Aragorn's troops would add little to the City's defense and would be ultimately overwhelmed as well, if not in this siege than in the next or the one after etc. (Remember, Gandalf makes it clear that the victory at Pellenor is a temporary one at best, Sauron can easily send more troops.)

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Especially after the Rohirrim arrive, since such a message might re-hearten Sauron's troops (however much Sauron may have relied on his troops fighting to the death out of fear of him, or because he could sort of puppet them (I'm thinking of the Trolls here.) there are presumably SOME officers among them (probably mostly men) whose battle tactics are a little more complex than "we have the numbers, meele randomly until we out swarm them. If your army is going to use trebuchets, battering rams and cavalry (not to mention barrusry) you sort of have to).

If I recall correctly, the realisation that the Corsairs were bearing reinforcements for the enemy did in fact dishearten Sauron's troops. So even if he considered them to be of little tactical value, they caused immense damage to morale. And even a relatively small amount of preparation might have seriously impeded the advance of the rangers, for example protecting the river banks with archers or even ambushing and delaying them further upstream or floating snags on the river. This might have taken but a relatively small detachment of the overall force being deployed on Pellenor at the time. It probably wouldn't have permanently stopped Argaorn's advance, but could have won valuable time and avoided the demoralising effect of Aragorn appearing on the main battlefield. Thus my own conclusion is that Sauron was unaware of who was on the ships.

[Alfirin]

Under those circumstances I am forced to agree. It just seems to me to be an extreme level of myopia on Sauron's part, to be so focused on the siege that he would not bother to ever check on potential reinforcements nor send a message to his lower downs on the field to do so (especially when you consider he has access to a flying force whose PRIMARY use seems to be conveying messages quickly. But then again, that IS sort of one of Sauron's flaws, being unable to see the forest for the trees.