Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Only an opinion.

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But if he was right in allowing Aragorn the ability to express such accurate foresight, I would want to know how it was possible.

Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.



Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

The question remains unanswered. How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar, one that even the Nine Nazgul could not get past? He had been to Moria before, but did he have any news of an ancient terror dwelling there? This goes way past the level of accuracy of Glorfindel's prediction on the fate of the Witch-king, which took a very long time to fulfil.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The question remains unanswered. How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar? He had been to Moria before, but did he have any news of an ancient terror dwelling there?

Perhaps there is a perception problem here. I offered you the correct answer in my last reply, which you then quoted. Here, let me re-post it so that you may read it again. Several times if you'd like:

Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps there is a perception problem here. I offered you the correct answer in my last reply, which you then quoted. Here, let me re-post it so that you may read it again. Several times if you'd like:

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.

[Belegorn]

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."

Originally Posted by FotR; A Journey in the Dark

I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien. The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar, one that even the Nine Nazgul could not get past?

Did he do so, forecast Gandalf's "imminent doom"?