What if Glorfindel joined the fellowship to Lothlorien?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah why didn't they go? What was the reasoning here, wasn't it something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "taking the Ring to the Fire is a hopeless mission, and since it's (next to) impossible the small may just as well attempt it as the great"? Which is pretty daft if you ask me. Like if Rafael Nadal appears on a local clay-court and he wants a challenger, and you respond by sending out a limp and near-sighted senior citizen instead of the local tennis champion since neither is likely to win. Objectively Merry and Pippin are quite useless to the Quest, and when Gandalf insists that they are to come too the only way it makes sense if by some divine premonition. Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo into Mordor if I remember correctly, and he would've been a great guide. Aragorn would too, but intended to go to Minas Tirith, but when Gandalf fell he was going to take on that responsibility. But really, wouldn't it make sense to bring some more people who knew their stuff, as a back-up? Pippin couldn't find Gondor on a map for christ's sake.

Why, does Sauron have some kind of spot-the-Elf special ability?

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting point by Boromir about Elladan and Elrohir being chosen by Elrond.
I had always assumed one of them would have been Glorfindel (and Tauriel? )
--- ducks bricks---

But assume you're an Elrond advisor and he's unsure. Who would you pick.
What about another dwarf and a junior Rivendell elf so both northern elf
polities are representative. Dwarfs would be useful if some of the company tried
to get through to Mordor (and I believe Aragorn was going to include Gimli
in the core company to get to Mount Doom.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually by that sort of thinking, it almost makes no sense NOT to have Glorfindel going, limit of nine or no. Elrond KNOWS Aragorn and Boromir are planning to not go with the fellowship into Mordor, but head for Minas Tirith. In otherwords, two of the objectively best fighters in the group are planning to leave around when the trip will be most likely to get into the point where being spotted and having to fight is probably most likey (i.e. even if Sauron isn't expecting anyone to do what the fellowship is doing, Mordor is going to have a much higher likeyhood of bumping into Mordorian troopd on random patrol than anywhere else.) Elrond THINKS Gandalf will probably stick with Frodo, but there are probably circumstances where even HE might break off (say if Sarumam comes up with a plan so dangerous that Gandalf needs to directly intervene to keep it from suceededing (basically what he does do, but happening while Gandalf is still accompanying an unbroken fellowship as opposed to one that no longer has a Frodo and Sam with it, and Gandalf still being the Gray) Plus Elronds seems to have some inklings that something might happen to Gandalf. So under those circumstances, Elrond would have to assume that Frodo might be entering Mordor guarded by only three hobbits one elf and one dwarf. Legolas and Gimli can safely be assumed to be competent fighters, but they aren't going to likely to be enough to deal with say the group being surrounded by an Orc platoon. Sam Merry and Pippin will certainly fight to the death to protect Frodo, but in this case "to the death" is likey to be very very soon, and not actually accomplish much vis a vis keeping Frodo safe. Under those circumstances sending Glorfindel as a sort of "backup" Gandalf would make a lot of sense. He is going to be at least decent guide, especially if Elrond thinks far enough ahead to send him a long with a COPY of the Map Frodo was shown (seriously, given how long the fellowiship was in Rivendell preparing, you'd think Elrond would have seen a copy got into thier hands (maybe he did, but he gave it to Gandalf or Aragorn). He's a master warrior, so probably can slaugter any roving orc patrols they are unlucky enough to bump into. And if worse comes to worse, and a Nazgul actually does spot Frodo, Glorfindel is probably the only person in Middle Earth (again except maybe Gandalf) who can go toe-to-toe with a Ringwraith and have a decent chance of actually winning, or at least surviving.

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

If it had happened that in Mordor the group is "surrounded by an Orc platoon", they would have been almost certainly doomed anyway - the disclosure was a sentence. And, I am sure, there was nothing that Saruman could do to make Gandalf abandon Frodo, unless he (Saruman) goes forward and fights Gandalf in person.

I'm not so sure of that, at least, I'm not so sure there would not come situations to make Gandalf be willing to leave at least temporarily, like he did in the Hobbit. If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think that there is a bit too much emphasis in the discussion on Sauron's ability to "sense" various personages, which strikes me as very Movieverse. Remove the Irritable Lighthouse and go back to Sauron as the Lord of Barad-dur, aware of the world beyond his presence only via his spies and servants, and the dubious utility of the Palantir*, and the notion goes away.

In Tolkien's full synoptic Chronology, which hopefully will see print in the not too distant future, it's clear how blind and groping Sauron really was, and how limited to fairly conventional means of intelligence-gathering (e.g., T calculated the distance from Moria to Barad-dur and how long it would take messenger-birds to traverse it, and how long Orc-runners would take to reach Isengard).


*Yes, a Palantir could see anywhere in Middle-earth one wanted. But first one had to know where to look. For all of the US' spy satellites and drones, it took ten years to spot the only six-foot-four Arab in the AfPak border region.......

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think that there is a bit too much emphasis in the discussion on Sauron's ability to "sense" various personages, which strikes me as very Movieverse. Remove the Irritable Lighthouse and go back to Sauron as the Lord of Barad-dur, aware of the world beyond his presence only via his spies and servants, and the dubious utility of the Palantir*, and the notion goes away.

The Witch-king would have been much more likely to recognize Glorfindel than Sauron, as one would think he did when the Black Riders were driven into the Ford of Bruinen. And you know, maybe that was another strike against Glorfindel being included in the Fellowship. If Glorfindel had been seen or otherwise discerned as associated with the Nine Walkers, wouldn't that have been a clear indication the Ring was also there?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Witch-king would have been much more likely to recognize Glorfindel than Sauron, as one would think he did when the Black Riders were driven into the Ford of Bruinen. And you know, maybe that was another strike against Glorfindel being included in the Fellowship.

But only if he saw him. It's not like Glorfindel radiated some sort of Arda-wide homing beacon! Moreover, any Wraith would have, if it saw a High-elf of Valinor, immediately recognized him as an enemy and a threat even if not as a particular individual (and likely withdrawn, as Khamul did from Gildor's party).

If Glorfindel had been seen or otherwise discerned as associated with the Nine Walkers, wouldn't that have been a clear indication the Ring was also there?

Not necessarily: Glorfindel, I'm sure, was known as one of the chief foes of Sauron and might be expected to engage in scouting missions (as he in fact did in the search for Gandalf). Moreover, we see from the Galdor episode that the presence of High-elves tended to confuse Ringwraiths' senses and actually mask the Ring's "signal."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Glorfindel, I'm sure, was known as one of the chief foes of Sauron and might be expected to engage in scouting missions (as he in fact did in the search for Gandalf). Moreover, we see from the Galdor episode that the presence of High-elves tended to confuse Ringwraiths' senses and actually mask the Ring's "signal."

Since the last sighting of Glorfindel "in the field" had him in the presence of the Ring, it would be a reasonable assumption that finding him in a party containing Hobbits would be a red flag that the Ring was with the Fellowship.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I'm not so sure there would not come situations to make Gandalf be willing to leave at least temporarily, like he did in the Hobbit. If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

I am also not sure. However, there was a significant difference between The Hobbit affair and the War Of the Rings. The re-establishment of the Kingdom Under the Mountain, whatever the importance could be, was a sub-plot in Gandalf's schemes while the fight against Sauron was his major preoccupation. When the White Council decided to wage an open war on Dol Gudur, Gandalf made his choice according to his priorities.

The quest of the Fellowship was a different matter: if the Fellowship had failed the victory over Izengard wouldn't have had any significance. As soon as the mission was accomplished, Sauron forces would have dispersed and it seems that a combined effort of Rivendell, Loth-Lorien, Farngorn, Dunedain rangers and remains of Gondor and Rohan would have been sufficient to crush Saruman's army.

Such a result would have come with greater loss but no-one could actually foresee the course of events, that's for sure

[Alfirin]

Could Gandalf have even assumed that? Eliminating Sauron would certainly have taken the commander out of the equasion and probably the generals (i.e. the Ringwraiths) But everyone else in the army of Mordor is not so tied to the Ring or Sauron that His death would ipso facto gurantee thier disbandment. I imagine that, free from Sauron's control , at least some of the Orc legions (especially those already in the west and fighting), would have been recruited by Saruman into his forces with simple offers of continued opportunities to fight loot and pillage. As for your crushing alliance, it might not have been able to muster that group. Fangorn's Ents might simply not be there anymore (Given Saruman's reletless industrialization, the added time free and at large that he would have had while Ganadalf was still on the quest, Fangorn would probably have already been clearcut and the number of living Ents and Huorns near or at zero. Rohan might largely be on Saruman's SIDE if Grima is now King of the Mark (a lot of people might stick to him simply because of that, loyalty to the king overriding any personal feelings) And Gondor might be down to the point where the number of warriors they could muster would be about the same as the amount Arnor could (i.e. about the same number as the rangers) with no guiding force. Denethor would probably be dead in such a circumstance as would Boromir, Faramir AND Aragorn (Aragorn once he got to Minas Tirith, would probably stay and fight as opposed to fleeing even when the situation got hopeless, so the odds of having him to rally behind are remote. Actually since the Rangers would probably have come to Minas Tirith by that point as well, they might all be slaugtered too. The Dead Men could not have come, because Aragorn would probably not have been able to get to them (since in that situation, Dunharrow would be in ENEMY (Rohan) hands. So it would basically boil down to Rivendell and Lothlorien against a Saruman army that might be many times the size it was in LOTR, with massive amounts of extra machinery and explosives (imagine what would have happened had Saruman marched on Minas Tirith too, and simply blasted the walls apart.) I'm not saying you are wrong when you think that Gandalf would say "destroying the ring trumps all" I'm just saying you may be underestimating how much damage Saruman might have been able to accomplish had he been allowed to go unchecked, and overestimating how much of a resistance force would be left to deal with him under that set of circumstances.
Gandalf may have known this. After all when he comes back, he decides that he should stay and help with the defence of the West, as opposed to, say, rounding up the fellowship and heading to Mordor in hope of being able to find Frodo and Sam.
All I am saying is, in some ways, it doesn't make sense for Elrond not to include Glorfindel as Backup, and it's a little odd Gandalf doesn't want him, since having him there would allow Gandalf to not have to make that decision (Glorfy would mean Gandalf would have the option of playing like the hobbit, moving from one to the other as he felt was important, since Glorfy could keep thme safe in Gandalf's absence.

[Zigûr]

In The Return of the Shadow we can see that at several points Professor Tolkien intended Glorfindel to be a member of the Fellowship only to ultimately reject his inclusion: "No Glorfindel" being the abrupt note in one of his planning sections. I feel very certain some explanation was given for this in the notes but I cannot find it. Perhaps I imagined it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In The Return of the Shadow we can see that at several points Professor Tolkien intended Glorfindel to be a member of the Fellowship only to ultimately reject his inclusion: "No Glorfindel" being the abrupt note in one of his planning sections. I feel very certain some explanation was given for this in the notes but I cannot find it. Perhaps I imagined it.

I found the references you note, as well as looking at all mentions of Glorfindel in the four HOME volumes concerning LOTR. I didn't see any sort of explanation for the change either, but it appears that the next idea for the Fellowship had them all being Hobbits, so maybe that gave the Professor pause to consider other ideas.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Eliminating Sauron would certainly have taken the commander out of the equasion and probably the generals (i.e. the Ringwraiths) But everyone else in the army of Mordor is not so tied to the Ring or Sauron that His death would ipso facto gurantee thier disbandment. I imagine that, free from Sauron's control , at least some of the Orc legions (especially those already in the west and fighting), would have been recruited by Saruman into his forces with simple offers of continued opportunities to fight loot and pillage.

It seems from the book that many of the orcs wanted to desert and live for the sake of there own pleasure. The will of Sauron and the fear of Nazgul was the main binding force behind there armies. Some formations could probably have been hired by Saruman but had he considerable powers over orcs he had not produced, he would probably have defeated Sauron earlier on.

It is extremely difficult to estimate the forces in the case of alternative story. Just if we look at Farngorn - seeing the devastation made Ents to go on war. Though Pipin's intervention help it happened earlier, it would have happened anyway and likely before the most of Hurons were dead. And let me remind that it were Hurons, not Ents who slaughtered Saruman's army at Helm's Deep and later destroyed the fortifications of Izengard.