Sauron and Istari

[Sarumian]

Zigûr,

I really like your commentaries but am going to question this one. I did not come across any place where Tolkien states that Istari's powers were limited in any other way than via prohibition to exercise them freely. I tend to think they retained there power as Maiar but were ordered to hide it and use only in the situation of emergency. Incarnation does not necessarily limit supernatural powers and we can find an example in Christian theology.

I do not think Sauron would imagine a Maia who would reject the Ring.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I really like your commentaries but am going to question this one. I did not come across any place where Tolkien states that Istari's powers were limited in any other way than via prohibition to exercise them freely. I tend to think they retained there power as Maiar but were ordered to hide it and use only in the situation of emergency. Incarnation does not necessarily limit supernatural powers and we can find an example in Christian theology.

Perhaps not. I am not convinced, however, that their power was purely down to obligation, because it seems logical to me that had this been the case the fallen Saruman would have been far more personally dangerous than he actually was.

In lieu of a definitive answer as to what Sauron thought about Gandalf denying the Ring I can only give you speculation, but that is all that is possible. We already have established that Sauron did not understand Gandalf. He must have assumed that his apparent failure to seize the Ring was either stupidity or part of some wider bid for power. What other answer is there?

EDIT: It might also be worth recalling the remarks in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Wizards were "real and not feigned" and that "being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." This sounds altogether different to me than the way in which the Ainur conventionally became incarnate. The bodies of the Wizards seem less like mere clothing than the they were among the Ainur when regularly incarnate.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I am not convinced, however, that their power was purely down to obligation, because it seems logical to me that had this been the case the fallen Saruman would have been far more personally dangerous than he actually was.

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In lieu of a definitive answer as to what Sauron thought about Gandalf denying the Ring I can only give you speculation, but that is all that is possible. We already have established that Sauron did not understand Gandalf. He must have assumed that his apparent failure to seize the Ring was either stupidity or part of some wider bid for power. What other answer is there?.

Think, Sauron might have suspected an intrigue. He might have thought, Gandalf wanted The Ring but after he had established it was The One, he had no chance to do it decently. Isildur's heir had more right to keep it. Sauron might have thought Gandalf is around as a scavenger who is going to wait till Aragorn is dead and pick up The Ring for himself.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

EDIT: It might also be worth recalling the remarks in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Wizards were "real and not feigned" and that "being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." This sounds altogether different to me than the way in which the Ainur conventionally became incarnate. The bodies of the Wizards seem less like mere clothing than the they were among the Ainur when regularly incarnate.

I agree with that and suffering limits the ability to act. However, this is rather the limitation not on power itself but on the way it manifests itself and can be used.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I thought, Saruman suffered a loss similar to Melkor in the War of Wrath - he spent himself on "dark arts", created a big army invested his will into it and lost it - thus he has lost his powers. As Valar's representative, Gandalf only fixed this, preventing Saruman from regaining his powers even slowly.

I think what Gandalf did was strip Saruman of all authority to act as a representative of the Valar in Middle-earth: hence the symbolic breaking of Saruman's "badge", his staff, and the head of the staff falling at Gandalf's feet making him the new "head" of the Istari. That had the effect of greatly limiting Saruman's power to affect his environment. Gandalf said his one remaining "tooth" was his voice, and that might have been less a part of his "powers", and more akin to an innate gift with which he had been created.

[Andsigil]

No doubt there will be people here who will point out that I'm in error, but I've always felt that, since they were all Maiar, Sauron and the Istari knew each other from their days before coming to Middle Earth.

I never got the impression that the Maia population was so big that Sauron, for example hadn't met, or at least heard of Curumo (Saruman) or Olórin (Gandalf) while they were in Valinor for a few thousand years.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

No doubt there will be people here who will point out that I'm in error, but I've always felt that, since they were all Maiar, Sauron and the Istari knew each other from their days before coming to Middle Earth.

I never got the impression that the Maia population was so big that Sauron, for example hadn't met, or at least heard of Curumo (Saruman) or Olórin (Gandalf) while they were in Valinor for a few thousand years.

I totally agree with you on the matter that Sauron knew other Istari as Maiar in Valinor and as Ainur before, in the time of Music. The issue is that Sauron never happened to meet any of them in person in ME, where they adopted a humble identity of wizards and accepted names given by people's of ME, keeping their true origin, names and identity a grave secret. They unveiled it only to few wisest and Sauron was not one of the few.

Moreover, I am sure making Sauron aware of their nature was the last thing Istari desired. Sauron, on the other hand, must have feared the situation when The Ring comes into the hands of another Maia more than anything else (as he did not believe it could be destroyed).

Something tells me if Sauron had known Gandalf was a Maia in advance, he would not have just sent the Nine to retrieve it from 'Baggins' but, perhaps, went along with them himself. But if he came to such conclusion after his most terrible servants enjoyed Elrond's swimming class at Rivendell, it seems to me now, he could hardly do anything different.

[Zigûr]

The quotes we've examined here from the letters and so on, however, imply if not outright state that Sauron knew or at least accurately guessed that the Wizards had come from Aman, although he believed that they had been sent to exert Manwë's will over Middle-earth and not, as was actually the case, to assist Men and Elves in resisting him. He must surely have assumed they were Maiar; what else could they have conceivably been?

That being said, he must have observed that the Wizards were Maiar of a significantly lower stature than himself - he was one of the great among the Maiar, perhaps of comparable stature to, say, Melian, Eönwë, Ilmarë, Ossë and Uinen - albeit perhaps not quite as mighty as these particular examples, and certainly not by the end of the Third Age. In a footnote to letter 183 Professor Tolkien observes that Sauron was an angelic spirit "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order." Were some Maiar scarcely more powerful than Elf-lords? Perhaps even, in some respects, weaker? This might explain why Sauron was not threatened by their presence if he understood their nature (if not their intentions or purpose).

I don't believe Sauron would have hunted the Ring personally in any event. He did almost nothing personally in the Third Age.