WW CI - Mutton yesterDay, mutton toDay and mutton toMorrow

[Rikae]

Pardon me - would it be more accurate to say that in the beginning you suggested that it might be wolf-on-wolf but suspected me more, but later in the day you were basically sure of it (suspected Inzil just as much)?

It doesn't change my point, which is that you were fixated on me being evil all day, and seemed to decide Inzil was over the course of the day (although now you claim it was obvious).

And about that: if it was so obvious, what's so strange about me going after him, that it has to be wolf-on-wolf? Am I not smart enough to pick up on the obvious?

I also answered several of your accusations from yesterDay, but you ignored me.
If you are innocent I suggest you look over my answers, and everything else that has happened, without the bias that seems to have taken hold of you. This village is too small for an innocent to waste a vote.

EDIT: X'd with Nog.

[Nogrod]

I think it would be advisable if myself, Nerwen and / or Kath took some time to check through that exchange.

I just remember Sally went on Rikae quite strongly at the early stages of yesterDay and that it aroused my attention making me suspect Sally more. It would be healthy to go back back there and check it, and not judge it by the slight parts one remembers (talking of myself primarily here).

It's pretty late here, but as the task is limited (and I have no need to wake up very early tomorrow), I might take a quick look before going to sleep.

[Rikae]

Okay, so looking over it again myself, it seems to boil down to (correct me if I'm wrong) Sally thought I was suspicious because I initially suspected Morsul, then went after the people who followed me in suspecting him. She mentions that this is what Pom did on Day 1.

Fair enough. If you really can't believe that an innocent would do that, or see why I did it, fine. I have to say, though, would hate this game if it were reduced to suspecting someone at the beginning of the Day and sticking with it forever, never changing one's mind as information emerged, let alone (God forbid!) bluffing about one's suspicions to get a read on others. I mean, if you really think I had no reason to change my mind, or didn't make a serious effort to save Morsul, fine. I said I thought it looked wolfish and Inzil in particular did, but at the time no one seemed interested in what I had to say (certainly not Sally). I can't control people as much as she seems to think I can.

At any rate, earlier she mentions having thoughts in another tab, which I suppose could have been that; later she talks about not lynching me in terms of "we just give up?", which is odd since she seems to be the only one who suspects me.

She could be a wolf with a plan but on second glance, she could be an innocent with a preconceived idea and now everything is seen through that lens. But yeah, Sally, if you're basing all this on my "flip-flop" on Morsul, maybe reread that Day; if you have decided changing one's mind in werewolf is simply a no-no, well, I can only shake my head on you.

EDIT: X'd with Sally.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Pardon me - would it be more accurate to say that in the beginning you suggested that it might be wolf-on-wolf but suspected me more, but later in the day you were basically sure of it (suspected Inzil just as much)?

Still inaccurate, but closer, I suppose. Dun rather quickly became a foregone conclusion in my mind; I could think of no reason he would do such a thing as an innocent. So yes, I put my focus elsewhere. Where did I put my focus? Where it should have gone, which is toward who I thought could be his mate. Guess what? I thought it was (and still think it could be) you. I realize I may be wrong, and that the exchanges about him waiting to vote you until later and your references to Dueling Wizards and the way you reacted to the Morsul lynch and everything else could all be coincidental, but no one else is even giving you a proper look, so by God, I'm going to do it for them.

I'm going to say this (hopefully only) one more time: Rikae is clever. She knows how to manipulate other players. Lynching a packmate so openly is a very bold, very risky maneuver, and one I can see a wolf Rikae making. It is not out of the question for her. Stop acting like she is not intelligent enough to do something like this.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If you are innocent I suggest you look over my answers, and everything else that has happened, without the bias that seems to have taken hold of you. This village is too small for an innocent to waste a vote.

Bolding mine. That is exactly why I am pushing so hard for others to suspect you. I'll not have this game end in a loss just because the innocents weren't doing their jobs.

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae. It's not the double standard that bothers me, but rather the way in which some of you have resigned yourselves to your fate if Rikae is a wolf, going so far as to say that even if she is a wolf, she won't be lynched. What sort of an attitude is that? I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.


I need a drink.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae.

Well there is a remarked difference between how Brinn talked about Rikae and how she talked about you - and with a seer the point (and the devil?) is in the details.

But seeing you come down to this kind of "arguments" actually makes me suspect you more. Not to talk of this...

I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.

Would you self-vote next?

Okay, sorry about that, but what you say does really more scream wolf that sound reasonable.

But really Sally. If you're an innocent (which I seem to doubt more and more now), you should understand that what we had from Brinn is not anything conclusive but it is something.

I mean Brinn is a clever person as well and even if she might have been a bit too overconfident that she's not going to be killed, or over-cautious with giving any hints, but still her treating of Rikae looks well enough for the time being.

I don't think none of us others thinks Rikae would not be able to pull a super-show off and to use the situation to her advantage if she were a wizard. It's just that there are more reasonable explanations so far than that.

I need a drink.

I think we all need one, or two.


EDIT: X'd with the clever one...

[satansaloser2005]

Nog, there's a marked difference in that nothing. I understand how you've come to the conclusions you've come to, I really do, but you're putting too much meaning into Brinn's actions just as much as Rikae accuses me of doing with hers. Seers can be mistaken in their opinions just like the rest of us. I trust Nerwen right now more than the lot of you put together, but that doesn't mean I know her role. Why? Because the only gifted left alive is the ranger, and the only information they have is from the first Night's kill. Thus, we're all in the same boat: none of us have any concrete information.

I understand giving her some benefit of the doubt. I understand why you think she might have (repeat, might have) been dreamt by the seer. What I don't understand is why you won't use your brain and look at what she's done rather than what others have said about her. If you do a careful, thorough reading of her posts and you still think she's innocent, then fine, but stop acting like it's a foregone conclusion.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Would you self-vote next?

Obviously not. I said I'd give up, not do the wizard's job for them.

Oh, and here's Rikae herself. Lovely.

And what is this nonsense about Dueling Wizards and the way I reacted to the Morsul lynch? What are you even talking about?

Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go back through the thread, especially the last two Days. You're going to see my posts. You're going to actually read them. Then you're going to come back and realize you know the answer to that question.

Actually, I didn't make the Dueling Wizards thing clear in my post yesterDay, which is my own fault, and thus I shall explain now.

I don't think you're actually referencing the game itself. I think you're gloating about wolf-on-wolf tactics (dueling, after all, and the wolves in this game being called wizards). I think you not only were willing to resort to bussing your packmates, but happy to do so, possibly even planning to do so, because you are clever enough to realize that sort of thing works. I think the "I always suspect him, simple as that" and Dun's "++Rik.... Not yet" were clever but telling comments. I think you went for him (and thus away from Morsul) the Day before yesterDay because you wanted a solid setup for sacrificing Dun if it became necessary, which I think it did when you saw that Cab had died. I think you needed that little bit of extra leverage to get into the position you're in toDay, which is that of a trusted innocent. I think you've put on quite a show, and I think it's brilliant, but I think you need to die.

The Morsul bit is here.

Originally Posted by Rikae

....To use logic to discern who is more likely innocent is not "being resigned to your fate". This is totally ridiculous.

Oh, so you didn't read this post either.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I said- if Rikae is a wolf after all, we've aleady lost, because there's no way she's going to be lynched now unless she climbs the gallows and sticks her head in the noose. Or someone manages to make a truly damning case on her. Short of that, I think we just have to assume she's innocent now.

"We've already lost," she says. "We just have to assume," she says. We don't have to do anything, which is why I think I'm getting so upset about all of this. There's no possibility for a case against you because people have already decided you've been dreamt by the seer. You can do anything you want, short of flat out saying you're a wolf, and the rest of the village will bat their flipping eyelashes and say, "Well, Brinn spoke nicely of her, and she hasn't been that bad, so we can't lynch her."


I know I'm getting rude about this, but I've seen wolves get away with being "seer-dreamt" before, and I have no intention of it happening again.


I need to be off of here for a while. I'm going to look at the rest of you again, just in case the wizard isn't Rikae, but I don't know when I'll be back (though knowing me, I won't be able to stay away for too long, because this is really, really starting to bother me).


x'd since the post of Rikae's I quoted

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I understand giving her some benefit of the doubt. I understand why you think she might have (repeat, might have) been dreamt by the seer. What I don't understand is why you won't use your brain and look at what she's done rather than what others have said about her. If you do a careful, thorough reading of her posts and you still think she's innocent, then fine, but stop acting like it's a foregone conclusion.

I don't think it is a foregone conclusion. Anything but.

And I could even see what you mean by telling us to read her posts. I agree she doesn't make it easy to believe in her innocence!

But Brinn sorting her out on D1 as the innocent one and then coming strongly to defend her on D3 when she was suspected by her self-vote do speak louder than other considerations right now.

If we end up lynching you Sally and you turn out innocent (your innocence being I think the least probable scenario at the moment), then it will be sure those alive toMorrow need to seriously reconsider Rikae's role.

Well everyone's role...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go back through the thread, especially the last two Days. You're going to see my posts. You're going to actually read them. Then you're going to come back and realize you know the answer to that question.

Well, that was incredibly snotty, and no. I don't. You simply mentioned it, as though it meant something. I'm actually considering not reading any more of your posts at all now, though. I don't appreciate being given orders like I'm a mentally challenged child.

I don't think you're actually referencing the game itself. I think you're gloating about wolf-on-wolf tactics (dueling, after all, and the wolves in this game being called wizards). I think you not only were willing to resort to bussing your packmates, but happy to do so, possibly even planning to do so, because you are clever enough to realize that sort of thing works.

Um, wait, so you think I'm so clever, I hinted about what I was supposedly planning on doing as a baddie? Very clever. Thanks so much for that great compliment.

I think the "I always suspect him, simple as that" and Dun's "++Rik.... Not yet" were clever but telling comments. I think you went for him (and thus away from Morsul) the Day before yesterDay because you wanted a solid setup for sacrificing Dun if it became necessary, which I think it did when you saw that Cab had died. I think you needed that little bit of extra leverage to get into the position you're in toDay, which is that of a trusted innocent. I think you've put on quite a show, and I think it's brilliant, but I think you need to die.

Just vote me and be done with it: you apparently aren't going to consider any other possibility.

Oh, so you didn't read this post either.

I read all of the posts. Unfortunately.

"We've already lost," she says. "We just have to assume," she says. We don't have to do anything, which is why I think I'm getting so upset about all of this.

IF I'm a wolf, she says. But apparently you missed the bit where she doesn't think I am. You think I am: great. Go on and vote for me. Do your best to get everyone else to. I'm done talking to you, though.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, that was incredibly snotty, and no. I don't. You simply mentioned it, as though it meant something. I'm actually considering not reading any more of your posts at all now, though. I don't appreciate being given orders like I'm a mentally challenged child.

I didn't simply mention it. It's quite a bit of the post, actually. But again, I'll explain. You were set to lynch Morsul. You said so yourself. Others started voting for him, you cried setup, and then you backed off like crazy. The next Day, you acted as though you knew he'd be innocent. I know you said you changed your mind. Fair enough, but also convenient. You prepared for the lynch, but you had no blood on your hands because you didn't actually vote for him. What a delicious place for you to be in.

It's not my fault you seem to have blatantly chosen to ignore that post, belittle it, in fact, and then be rude to me afterward. I don't appreciate you saying I'm "terribly ridiculous" or that you're going to shake your head at me. It's rude. It's uncalled for. So yes, I've snapped, but only because you're being incredibly frustrating and, after I decided to leave you alone earlier in the game because I didn't want to upset you, this is the thanks I get. Gee, thanks a lot. What would you prefer? Should I have said something earlier on and had you rage quit? Would that have been better? It certainly wasn't my desire, but at this point, I'm regretting not saying anything sooner.


I'm off here for the night. I'm getting too angry and I really have better things to do.

[Rikae]

And that has what do do with dueling wizards?

No, you didn't explain your (absurd) dueling wizards theory until now, or if you did I somehow completely missed it.

Bah. I told myself I'd get out of this discussion.

If you aren't evil, the real wolf is laughing in the shadows now.

after I decided to leave you alone earlier in the game because I didn't want to upset you, this is the thanks I get. Gee, thanks a lot. What would you prefer? Should I have said something earlier on and had you rage quit? Would that have been better?

What? Really? Is that what you think of me?

Wow, and I thought you were insulting before.

I don't even care what your role is anymore.

++Sally

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I don't appreciate you saying I'm "terribly ridiculous" or that you're going to shake your head at me. It's rude.

Not "you are ridiculous". Your point. Your idea (if that's what it was). But I'm not surprised you didn't understand that. Fits the pattern.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I realize I may be wrong, and that the exchanges about him waiting to vote you until later and your references to Dueling Wizards and the way you reacted to the Morsul lynch and everything else could all be coincidental

You are wrong. And what is this nonsense about Dueling Wizards and the way I reacted to the Morsul lynch? What are you even talking about?

I'm going to say this (hopefully only) one more time: Rikae is clever. She knows how to manipulate other players. Lynching a packmate so openly is a very bold, very risky maneuver, and one I can see a wolf Rikae making. It is not out of the question for her. Stop acting like she is not intelligent enough to do something like this.

Yeah, great. I'm actually proud of catching that one wizard you keep calling "obvious", though, so apparently I'm not as clever as you believe.

Originally Posted by Sally

Bolding mine. That is exactly why I am pushing so hard for others to suspect you. I'll not have this game end in a loss just because the innocents weren't doing their jobs.

A loss for whom, I wonder.

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae. It's not the double standard that bothers me, but rather the way in which some of you have resigned yourselves to your fate if Rikae is a wolf, going so far as to say that even if she is a wolf, she won't be lynched. What sort of an attitude is that? I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.

Or maybe they think it is unlikely I'm a wolf? You know, for that matter, you have gotten a pass for a while because of your Pom vote (even though Cab's wolfishness reduces that halo effect now). People get moved onto the "innocentish" list for things like being defended by a seer (and no, I don't see any parallel between what she said about you and about me; I scoured her posts for anything useful and I didn't find anything else) and ensuring that a wolf would be lynched. Of course it's no guarantee someone is innocent, but to use logic to discern who is more likely innocent is not "being resigned to your fate". This is totally ridiculous.

I bet you wish you could have killed me without worrying about a ranger save, but this is your only option now. Right?

EDIT: X'd with Nog.

[Rikae]

You know, I still don't know what Sally means about the Dueling Wizards stuff, but it is interesting:

Right before posting on Day 1, I had the vague idea "I'll joke about the rules being like those in Dueling Wizards, and baddies will be the first to comment on this".

That's where my post about Cab, Pom and Zil came from - they commented on it.

Now Sally is trying to make something out of it. If she is a wizard, that's just beautiful: I think I'll have to do things like that more often!

[Rikae]

In before Sally accuses me of planning it all that way!

[Nogrod]

Sally / D6

Looking back at yesterDay, what kind of catches my eye is the suddenness of Sally's attack on Rikae.

It's about 4 hours in to the Day when Rikae votes Zil. Zil snaps twenty minutes later and self-votes.

Sally comes in twenty minutes after Zil's self-vote with a few comments on some people (not even mentioning Zil or Rikae). Then about an half an hour later she posts a full attack on Rikae just out of the blue. And she makes her case on other things than what had just happened, only coming to the Rikae -Zil exchange in the end of her post speculating that if they both could be wolves...

She comes back much later (after a night's sleep) and in a more conciliatory tone (understandable whatever her role), but seems to underline the possibility that if Zil is a wolf then Rikae might be one too just bussing her mate. Or that we should take what Brinn said about Rikae with a pinch of salt - speculating with the different possibilities why she might have said what she said about Rikae.

Then she says she will be back shortish and look for all, especially Zil only to come back fifty minutes before the DL saying she's still on D3, and finally posting a pretty random-looking collection of points (mostly on the first Days) 7 minutes before the DL - deciding that Zil is evil (at that point Zil had two votes and Sally herself had one).

What? Thinking Zil must be a Wizard on the basis of the first Days (last post she refers to is #383 while her own post is #660)? And then adding that Rikae could be his packmate...


This could fit a Wizard trying her best when things start to roll the wrong way.


EDIT: X'd with Rikae X2

[Nogrod]

Going to bed now.

Looking forwards to some input by Nerwen and espacially Kath.


EDIT:X'd with Sally

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What? Thinking Zil must be a Wizard on the basis of the first Days (last post she refers to is #383 while her own post is #660)? And then adding that Rikae could be his packmate...

I had read through the entire thread, but had only made notes on the first three Days or so. Again, I was unexpectedly handed a lot of work and obviously had to attend to that before Werewolf. I sincerely apologize for not being able to share more, but I had no choice.


x'd with Nog. Good night, dear. Sleep well.

[satansaloser2005]

Hello, all. I have returned, and am currently working on a more thorough (hopefully) analysis of Kath in another tab. I will be around for the rest of the Day with a large glass of chocolate milk, My Little Pony, and fuzzy blankets. Ahhhh. Wonderful.

[satansaloser2005]

Entirely too quick summation of a few of my problems with Nog, in case I don't have time to do a longer one:

The Day Oz died, a wizard Nog would have been in an excellent position (with the targets being Morsul, Volo, and Oz). Thus, his willingness to wait for me (as it were) could have been an innocent wanting to unite or a baddie waiting to see where the wind was going to blow. His "This turns out interesting indeed!!!" still rubs me the wrong way.

YesterDay toward the end, he actually seemed to be considering voting for someone other than Dun, offering the possibility of me and Nerwen as a wolf pair and wanting to act upon that. Why do this at so late an hour?

And then toDay, after saying for a while that Rikae couldn't be guilty, he admits that her behavior has in fact been suspicious. I'm not sure if it's just an attempt to make me feel better, but....I don't know, man, this whole situation's gone nuts, so I'm going to ignore that for the moment and look at it again later.

We have another hour. I'll try to look at Nog more closely, but I have other things to do as well, so it'll probably not be all that long. I won't get to Nerwen, I believe, but I stick to my opinion of her. My gut is never right (and thus never wrong) with Nerwen. Besides, she won't be back, so if she happens to be the ranger, she'd have no opportunity to defend herself.

x'd since my last