TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Boro

And now, what I find curious, is Shasta tried a more subtle sew distrust about the acolyte yesterday.

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Pom -

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!

This is the post I was referencing when I said "blatant".

Originally Posted by Pom

And I still don't think that xem killing Eru shows surely and absolutely that acolyte's evil - xe has now killed on one night, and a person who didn't really contribute.

I recall Eruhen being quite a good contributor in the past. I think saying "oh, he didn't really contribute, that's all right then" is selling him a bit short - and the fact remains, the acolyte killed an innocent. Granted, we don't know for sure that it's going to happen again. But I for one think it's very likely. Why no one seems to be concerned about this is genuinely beyond me.

Originally Posted by Inzil

We don't know what killed Eru Night 2

Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so) and it wasn't a wolf kill (that was Rikae in the narration), so...? I think that's pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Ok, I'm not the Acolyte. Satisfied?

Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so)

Actually:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not telling.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

I've already been through that with Legate, ad infinitum.

I understand the Acolyte ought to be a concern, but it shouldn't be the primary concern.

Despite known Spy Nog's, and your exhortations that the Acolyte is a big deal, the Spies are a far greater deal. We don't, for all you say, know what the Acolyte does. We know precisely what the Spies do.

At the moment, if I had to vote, it would probably be for Legate or Shasta.

[Pitchwife]

On the question of Eruhen's death - no, we don't know for sure whether he withdrew or was killed by the Acolyte, and maybe Nerwen is just amusing herself by leaving us in the dark; but the mention of a shadow on the curtain in the narration seems to me to indicate that there was someone else involved in his death, and unless we have an invisible killer rabbit among us that Nerwen forgot to mention in the rules, that doesn't leave a lot of possibilities.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've already been through that with Legate, ad infinitum.

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.

Eruhen wasn't exactly the most shining example of anything on Day 1. With his totally unreasoned vote for Lommy and lack of contribution otherwise, I'd say his allegiance was pretty much a mystery, and deducting that his killer has taken the side of the village is rather a stretch.

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

Subtle was a bad way of wording it.

I meant Nog was trying to scare us into not voting for him, by making some baseless ranting about the Acolyte being clearly aligned with the wolves. And therefor he was lynched, the Acolyte would attach to the 4 wolves and win the next day. Nog was using this to try to defend his innocence, but it's a completely irrational argument because if Nog was innocent there would be no way of knowing the Acolyte's allegiance.

Let me ask you, Shasta, if you are innocent. And say someone revealed as the seer you were a wolf. Obviously, you would know this person was lying. Would your reaction be to lynch the person who is obviously lying (and therefor must be a wolf), or argue some cracked up case about how the acolyte is clearly on the wolf-team and we will all lose if you're lynched? Surely you can see to try to scare us "Don't lynch me because you will die tomorrow" is extremely desperate.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Sure. I was heavy handed in my Nog accusations yesterday, but you have to know that one must be over-the-top when dealing with Nog. No offense meant to him, but seriously, if you're going to have such a big ego shout "IT'S A DUO-TRIPLE-WOLF CONSPIRACY TO LYNCH ME LAST NIGHT!!" than you can't cry foul when I call bull crap on you. Seriously, I was reading Nog's reactions after Eonwe's initial case and kept shaking my head thinking "what makes you soooo important Nog that there is a massive pre-planned wolf strategy to push and get you lynched during?" Because, seriously, ask yourself. If you're a wolf, and you want to get rid of someone that desperately, you just night-kill the person. Really, wolves do not care who gets lynched as long as it's not one of them. So talk about an inflated ego when trying to make it seem like there is some wolf-pack conspiracy to get YOU above everyone else lynched.

For a moment, leave "Nog being Nog" out of it. And just look at his posts (even before Eonwe's reveal, but especially after too).

In 199. He launched some big duo-wolf conspiracy that G55 and Eonwe pre-planned a "lynch Nog" attack against him. Oh, sure he tried to make it look reasonable by saying stuff about only an "impatient soul" would believe this to be true. Yet, he spent 3 paragraphs essentially arguing, "this duo-wolf attack against me I don't believe it, but it soo tempting and compelling...oh but I don't believe it of course...oh but it's so tempting."

Now. If someone's reaction to suspicion is "Pity me, it's a conspiracy against me!" Would you say, looks more wolvy or innocent?

And in the posts of someone trying to defend him/herself, if he/she slings mud, would you say that looks more wolvy or innocent?. Don't try tell me Nog wasn't slinging mud, with this one:

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

Come on. Talk about a cheap accusation, trying to use a "moral-highground" argument and wrap Pitch's name in cough. Oh, yes, real innocent that baselessly made junk accusation was

And if a person's reaction to anyone suspecting them is "they're all wolves! All the wolves are launching a plan to bring me down"...again look more wolvy or innocent?

I really don't mean to be a prick about this, but you honestly can't tell me Nog was being reasonable yesterday. The best way for me to deal with it is to call bull crap when I see it, and fight fire with fire. It's abrasive, it's combative, if you're innocent I will apologize to you afterward, if not I think you deserve it. Can't take the heat, get out of my kitchen.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2.

Hogwash. After Eonwe's post going after Nog, both Greenie and Legate immediately commented that Eonwe looked suspicious because he looked "evil" in the way he was painting Nog black. Greenie voted for him. Nog ran with that and pretty much parrotted Legate and Greenie. And I also believe Lommy (before Eonwe's reveal) was siding more with Nog being innocent than Eonwe, based on Eonwe's strongly-worded post suspecting Nog. So. Yeah. That's more bull-pucky.

Edit: crossed since Shasta's post 318

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay - on general evaluation of what's happened toDay, I am growing steadily more suspicious of Shasta. It's not about his way of arguing, which is faulty in many ways (like many have already mentioned - e.g. the "Eonwe was not suspected yesterDay enough..." I can vouch for myself that I indeed had suspected him, and I recall there were many others) - that does not necessarily say anything about guilt; but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).
Pitch also sums this up quite nicely from only slightly different angle:

Originally Posted by Pitch

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

With the arguing, it's not as much about the content, but the sort of stubborn form - or, in fact, there is also one of the argued-over issues: the Acolyte thing - still trying to make us convince that the Acolyte must be evil, which is not necessarily true by any means.

Not sure what to make of Boro, I am currently at loss about the whole subject, and he's incredibly wordy which makes it difficult to find any orientation. I still need to make up my mind about Inzil, what makes him better in my book is first his reaction to Eönwë - I think a Wolf would at least have tried whether he could not have been lynched (or mistrusted), the complete unquestioned trust wasn't also nothing special, of course - might have been that Inzil knew (as a Wolf) that Steve is innocent and thus knew to trust him... but then again also some of his latter posting does not look as bad. So I am not sure, sort of undecided about him currently.

Generally I agree with Pitch on a lot of things, only this (in regards to Inzil):

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

I think this is a bit of a stretch. If the question of Acolyte keeps being pushed on Zil (I don't recall even where exactly it started, but in any case, it hasn't left him since then), then of course it gets annoying and you don't want to talk about it. So this particular point... not really.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something? I mean, innocents, in contrary to some others, have no information whom to trust. I suspected Eönwë before, but I tried to post with the best intentions in mind, just as now. If you are following a certain pattern you set for yourself like a Wolf (e.g. "I will suspect person X, then I switch to person Y, then I will try to make the village lynch Z"), you usually post very "consistently" in the sense that all the time, the main intention sort of "behind" your behavior can be tracked as: "Yes, he wanted to lynch X." With innocent, the intention behind all the behavior should not be "He wanted to lynch X or Y", but "He wanted to do what was the best for the village from his current perspective." That's what I am doing. That's what I also often get suspected for.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

What I suggested previously: sometime late evening European time. Before you go to sleep, because then Americans will vote. Some people might vote earlier (Greenie often votes early, I have noticed), so might be even let's say in a couple of hours. Your call. I suggest letting post at least once most of the people first, but then whenever.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.

That option actually sounded very much likely to me. I'm quite willing to consider that as the real role of the Acolyte. Quite a lot, in fact. Because it makes perfect sense.

EDIT: x-ed with Sally and onwards