The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Fun and Games > Middle-earth Mirth
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2009, 06:31 PM   #1
Loslote
The Werewolf's Companion
 
Loslote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 3,021
Loslote is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Loslote is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Loslote is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Okay, I'm probably not going to get on again until pretty close to deadline, so good luck, all!
__________________
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night.
Double Fenris
Loslote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 08:58 PM   #2
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien View Post
What is this Nienna + Sally + Loslote triangle of trust?

A triangle of wolfdom?
Funny you should suggest that, as I'm very certain the group actually contains a wolf, an ordo, and a gifted. Guess which is which and you get a cookie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
I call for a Vote of No Confidence in Lommy. This is exactly when we do not want anyone to have control over the lynch. I don't care if Lommy is an innocent or not. She should not get control over the lynch.
Seconded. And to make it official, Lommie=Fired.



I'd like to be captain, for what it's worth. (I'd like to not die toNight, basically, but I also think I have a pretty good grasp on things and would love to help the village, being innocent and all.) Nog, what do we get guard-wise, my lovely?
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:06 PM   #3
Nienna
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nienna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: School
Posts: 642
Nienna has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to Nienna Send a message via MSN to Nienna
OoOh Sally. You haven't heard. I talked to Lottie last night and she's not a wolf! We were night talkers together and I can vouch for her.
__________________
Puddle! Puddle!
Nienna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:10 PM   #4
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
OoOh Sally. You haven't heard. I talked to Lottie last night and she's not a wolf! We were night talkers together and I can vouch for her.
I see. Exactly how sure are you, my dear? As sure as you are of my role, or do you just think she is?

*really loves this code crap*
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:12 PM   #5
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Also


Innocent:
Sally
Nienna

Not Sure:
Kath
Lottie (per Nienna)

Guilty?:
Lommie
Gwath
Nerwen


Oooo look, there's three of them in the guilty section. How convenient!
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:13 PM   #6
Nienna
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nienna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: School
Posts: 642
Nienna has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to Nienna Send a message via MSN to Nienna
As sure as I am of you, my dear.
__________________
Puddle! Puddle!
Nienna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:15 PM   #7
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
As sure as I am of you, my dear.
I....I see? How can you be as sure as you are of me? For you see, you may think she is innocent, but I do not think that word means what you think it means.

EDIT: x'd with GwathaGory-Nog-killer
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:19 PM   #8
Nienna
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nienna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: School
Posts: 642
Nienna has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to Nienna Send a message via MSN to Nienna
Quote:
Originally Posted by satansaloser2005 View Post
I....I see? How can you be as sure as you are of me? For you see, you may think she is innocent, but I do not think that word means what you think it means.
She has the same r0l3 as *you*.
__________________
Puddle! Puddle!
Nienna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:23 PM   #9
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
OoOh Sally. You haven't heard. I talked to Lottie last night and she's not a wolf! We were night talkers together and I can vouch for her.
I would be hesitant to trust anything said in that kind of confidence, since I'm guessing it's going to be way easier for a wolf to fool someone in a closed, controlled environment where the wolf gets to determine every word you read and you don't have the running commentary of the rest of the village to (theoretically) keep you sane. I'm not saying you're wrong, Nienna, I'm just saying that we have to evaluate everyone based on what they say during the Day, when we are all listening. That's the only safe way, because that's when we're more likely to see a player's true colors - when the combined spotlights of the attention of the whole village can be turned upon them.

SOrry for rattling on.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:27 PM   #10
Nienna
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nienna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: School
Posts: 642
Nienna has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to Nienna Send a message via MSN to Nienna
No Gwath that is fine. You don't have to trust us, but I do. I understand the risks in being convinced as I have been by Lottie but am willing to take that risk. You may commence analyzing everyone as I have tons and tons of homework to do. I suggest starting with Lommy as she is clearly a wolf.
__________________
Puddle! Puddle!
Nienna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:31 PM   #11
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
No Gwath that is fine. You don't have to trust us, but I do. I understand the risks in being convinced as I have been by Lottie but am willing to take that risk. You may commence analyzing everyone as I have tons and tons of homework to do. I suggest starting with Lommy as she is clearly a wolf.
It's also true that there comes a certain point when you have no choice but to gamble and trust one or two people. That point may have come for you, but not for me.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 02:26 AM   #12
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor View Post
I would be hesitant to trust anything said in that kind of confidence, since I'm guessing it's going to be way easier for a wolf to fool someone in a closed, controlled environment where the wolf gets to determine every word you read and you don't have the running commentary of the rest of the village to (theoretically) keep you sane. I'm not saying you're wrong, Nienna, I'm just saying that we have to evaluate everyone based on what they say during the Day, when we are all listening. That's the only safe way, because that's when we're more likely to see a player's true colors - when the combined spotlights of the attention of the whole village can be turned upon them.
And also, I have to add, wolves could easily decide to have these chats with each other and then tell the village "oh I had a special talk with x and she looks really innocent", thus exonerating their mates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lossie
What's with that? Both have the same 'reason' for voting for ordos.
And how many had the same flimsy reasons to vote innocent Roa yesterDay? Can't really accuse us for voting innocents when you did it too. At least we didn't cause the death of two innocents. Seriously though, I was suspicious of Fea and very unsure about Roa, so I thought I'd like to see what would happen if Fea-lynch was offered as an alternative. Besides, I did not want to take part in killing Roa whom I didn't think as guilty as everyone else did and I hate it when all the village votes the same person because it is virtually impossible to deduce anything from that.

Who do you think would've killed Fea? I'm sorry, but I'd point my finger at Nienna, who would possibly want to get rid of her friend before the last Days so that no one can realise what she's really up to.

But anyway, people, let's not make the same mistakes toDay as we did with Roa. Basically that means:
1) Let's check our lynch candidates' ties with Rune earlier than 15 minutes before the DL when most of people have already voted.
2) Let's not lynch somebody more or less everybody is willing to lynch because they are most probably innocent.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:15 PM   #13
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
Quote:
Originally Posted by satansaloser2005 View Post
Funny you should suggest that, as I'm very certain the group actually contains a wolf, an ordo, and a gifted. Guess which is which and you get a cookie.
Isn't always that way? It's never the nice neat package we'd like, it's always a mixed bag. That is to say, I agree.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:13 PM   #14
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
I'm sorry wasn't around last Night, Lommy. I forgot all about my bodyguard responsibilities and ended up going to a party instead, which is fairly embarrassing.

Well, friends, its all on the line today. No time for "alternate lynching options" like yesterDay (whatever that was about). Either we get it right, or we don't. And lets be darn careful who we elect Captain, since we're stuck with having one.

ALso, we need to do an assumption purge toDay. A lot of players, myself included, have not been seriously examined for the entire game or have been just assumed innocent for no apparent reason. Every single player needs to be analyzed exhaustively. Every single word.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:38 PM   #15
Nienna
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nienna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: School
Posts: 642
Nienna has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to Nienna Send a message via MSN to Nienna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor View Post
Every single player needs to be analyzed exhaustively. Every single word.
I think I know what you mean.
__________________
Puddle! Puddle!
Nienna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:52 PM   #16
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Tomorrow's deadline day at the paper, so I don't think I'll be around all that much. I'm pretty sure of Lommie's guilt, based on a brief readthrough and such, but I am going to wait to vote just because if the village decides to go for someone else I don't want to help the wolves do a vote split. But we do need to pick a new captain. My choices are as follows:

Me
Nienna
Kath
Gwath/Lottie
Nerwen
Anyone else but Lommie


Going to do a few things for work now so I don't have to scramble tomorrow. Back soon!
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 11:12 PM   #17
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,694
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Back. Reading.

...And sorry for not being around. My internet access is patchy at the moment.

I will tell say now that I don't have much more of an idea about Lommy now than yesterDay, mainly because we weren't able to be online at the same time.

EDIT:And Gwath didn't show at all.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

Last edited by Nerwen; 09-27-2009 at 11:19 PM.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 11:20 PM   #18
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,694
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
I don't want to be captain, by the way. I just can't guarantee being online at the right times.

Anyway, it doesn't matter unless we get a wolf toDay.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 11:26 PM   #19
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,694
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
And the internet keeps cutting out me, so I'd better vote now.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 12:00 AM   #20
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
Quote:
Originally Posted by satansaloser2005 View Post
Tomorrow's deadline day at the paper, so I don't think I'll be around all that much. I'm pretty sure of Lommie's guilt, based on a brief readthrough and such, but I am going to wait to vote just because if the village decides to go for someone else I don't want to help the wolves do a vote split. But we do need to pick a new captain. My choices are as follows:

Me
Nienna
Kath
Gwath/Lottie
Nerwen
Anyone else but Lommie


Going to do a few things for work now so I don't have to scramble tomorrow. Back soon!

I like how Lottie and I only got one line. Apparently we're the same person.

I'll hopefully be back in about 12 hours and then maybe I can get some analysis done. Right now it's time to sleep.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 12:12 AM   #21
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
"All I Ask of You" (A Romantic/Homicidal Duet for Ranger and Innocents)

Ranger:
No more talk of Night kills,
Ignore these baddies, dear.
I'm here to tell you I rhyme
And we won't lose another time

Let me be your savior,
Let my knife save your ears
I'm here with a large shotgun
To make the wolfies all gone

Innocents:
Say you'll save me when I'm being voted,
Turn my head with talk of lupine lynch
Say you'll work to save our helpless ordos
Promise me that you're not friends with Rune
That's all I ask of you

Ranger:
Let me be your captain,
My votes will be your guide
You're safe with me to guard you
The wolves will run to high school

Innocents:
All I want is victory
A world with no more wolves
And you still to play me
To make them not fillet me

Ranger:
Then say you'll vote with me to end the baddies
Let me lead you all into a win
Say you need me to decide who survives
Anything you do, let me help too
Village, that's all I ask of you

Innocents:
Say you'll share with me one lynch, one bandwagon
Find a wolf and we will slaughter them

Ranger and Innocents:
Share each hunch with me
Each hint
Each niggling

Ranger:
Say you trust me

Innocents:
You know I do

Wolves:
Don't lynch us
That's all we ask of you


As the Innocents and the Ranger walk away arm in arm(s) the audience's attention is suddenly drawn to Steve, who is sitting alone in the cold. He is clutching his laptop, which has the Admin Thread pulled up, and is clearly upset, composing a PM to Nogrod in another (Internet Explorer, Firefox, web browser of your choice) tab.


Steve:
I gave you my Night Guards
Made your game take wing
And now how you've repaid me
I'm not even playing!
He was bound to like it when he saw my game

Noggins...
Noggins...


The light fades on Steve and we again see the Ranger and the Innocent Chorus, staring hopefully at a vote count tacked to a large post.


Ranger and Innocents:
Say you'll share with me a lynch, a victory
Say the word and I will vote with you
Share decisions and the wolves we'll conquer


The scene fades to black, but suddenly a deep voice rumbles through the thread


Sudden!Unexpected!Phantom:
You will curse the day you did not do all that the Phantom asked of you!
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.

Last edited by satansaloser2005; 09-28-2009 at 12:28 AM. Reason: various edits of a "I can't type" nature, and adding linkage
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 02:14 AM   #22
Thinlómien
Shady She-Penguin
 
Thinlómien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.Thinlómien is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Ai ai ai if you silly people lynch me, we lose... Nerwen's vote looks rather oppoturnistic, and that's why I don't like it. If the wolves are Nerwen, Kath and Gwath I'm really going to bang my head against the wall. And if they're Sally, Nienna and Loslote, I'd like to do that too because they are so clearly allied it hurts. But I really hope I was wrong about Nerwen, because unless we keep me in office (which does not seem to be an option) we're doomed with one single innocent voting another and that's it. (So yeah, if we lose now and Nerwen is innocent, I blame her. ) On the other hand, Nerwen has disastrously misjudged me as an innocent before so... but that vote was most wolvish to me.

I will hang around for a while now and come back then several hours later, and then I should have time to go through everybody's posts. As for now, I'm only confused because my initial suspicion was Nienna + Sally + Lottie and you can't deny they are allied, but Nerwen's vote looks so bad that she might really be a wolf, which means all of the three I mentioned before wouldn't be wolves. Gah. I just have a bad feeling we're going to lose this game. (If it turns out we should've killed Kath on Day1 I will be annoyed but pleased with myself.)

Btw, if there should be a tie in Captain votes, who is to decide the new Captain? Me or a coin or some rule?
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer
Blood is running deep, some things never sleep
Double Fenris
Thinlómien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2009, 09:46 PM   #23
satansaloser2005
The Sweetest Spoiler
 
satansaloser2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,789
satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.satansaloser2005 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor View Post
Every single player needs to be analyzed exhaustively. Every single word.
I see what you did there.
__________________
"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit."
Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together.
Fenris bookworm.
satansaloser2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:04 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.