T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter

[Roa_Aoife]

Firstly, it is not Legate’s reasoning in circles that I find suspicious. We all do that to some degree (just look at how we're talking about Mac). My point in this is that he’s doing it a bit much and needs to pick a direction. Being overly cautious only helps yourself and not the village.

Secondly, by “reasoning in Rune’s favor” I mean people who were trying dissuade others from lynching him while not openly supporting him. While one wolf may have openly voted to make Rune captain, others may have been more subtle. When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him. Legate did the later more than anyone else. Over and over in his posts after Rune started to garner lynch votes, he reiterated the idea that Rune was probably innocent and shouldn’t be lynched, yet he never openly said that we should trust Rune. And he managed to sway people. I don’t see how anyone could NOT find that suspicious.

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday? I don’t believe you are gifted, because a gifted cannot act as a captain and is therefore useless. So, at best you’re an innocent after power, and at worst a wolf trying to get full advantage over the village.

Nienna, Hakon was found guilty for doing the same thing Rune did- declaring a desire to be captain. He said it oddly, but it was the same. I also suspected him for that reason.

Which of course means that those people who thought Hakon was guilty but not Rune look more suspicious. *coughGreeniecough*( You’re analysis is coming.)

Also, it's possible that Mac was killed because he's a strong player who tends to survive. Further more, the wolves probably suspected that our Rangers would have protected the more quiet people. So Mac was not a likely Ranger pick. It's possibly that he didn't strongly suspect a wolf, but don't forget a that a wolf is probably in his neutral group as well.

[Roa_Aoife]

Also, Lommy, as I tend to analyze people I find suspicious, of course I find things suspicious about them. Not always. Mostly, Legate's defending Rune without making a strong statement is what I find suspicious. His lack of commitment isn't terrible, except taken with the previous point. On top of that, arguing for a more powerful captain (which would be himself) adds to my suspicion of him, because it's not in the best interests of the village. Individually, the points can be taken neutrally. Together, the add up to a very different picture.

Yesterday, I started analyzing everyone because I felt I had a poor view of the village, not because I found them suspicious. As a result, you'll see that I was mostly neutral about them.

Edit: Strong statement, not string statement :rollseyes:

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him. Legate did the later more than anyone else. Over and over in his posts after Rune started to garner lynch votes, he reiterated the idea that Rune was probably innocent and shouldn’t be lynched, yet he never openly said that we should trust Rune. And he managed to sway people.

That's true, and he was doing that even before Rune started getting voted– right after I first expressed suspicion of him, in fact. If Rune's plan was to be "too obvious" to be a wolf, than I could imagine another of the pack pointing out that "real wolves are more subtle" to people who weren't buying it. On the other hand, innocents do tend to assume blatantly "wolfish" people can't really be wolves– and in fact very often they're not. *cough*Hakon*cough*

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday? I don’t believe you are gifted, because a gifted cannot act as a captain and is therefore useless. So, at best you’re an innocent after power, and at worst a wolf trying to get full advantage over the village.

Ah, but what if he's an ordo who thinks he'll be able to do some good in the role (I mean, Legate is clever, you know) and doesn't want to be replaced by another player who might be a wolf or gifted?

The thing is, Roa, if Legate is a wolf, than there must have been one heck of a conspiracy going on yesterDay. A lot of planning, I mean– many of the Legate-for-Captain voters, as I recall, were the same people who voted to lynch Rune.

EDIT:X'd since Roa at #321
EDIT2:Removed quote that wasn't meant to be there.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Firstly, because he was never really even voted to be the Captain, he just became the Captain because the elected Captain happened to die (and I must say that surprised me because I - wrongly - assumed we'd be without a Captain in a case like that). Ok this might not be the best of reasons, especially as our elected Captain was a wolf, but still for the sake of democracy, I'd rather have someone really elected for the position (and of course that doesn't disinclude Legate being re-elected).

Well, come on - I WAS elected, I had the second biggest number of votes. It's not that I would not have any votes at all and then suddenly ended up a Captain. I was given trust by quite many people in the village, okay, you excluded, but others were fine with it, so what? The Wolf who would have been a Captain had died, okay, I also didn't know how the rules will go, but the second person was chosen according to the rules, I think it's perfectly fine. And that's just for clarification. I would have said this even if e.g. Roa was the second one and was chosen to succeed Rune.

Secondly, and more importantly, because I don't think anybody should have power for too long. It's not only dangerous but also a bit useless. Legate had his chance to be protected and appoint people to PM with and talk with them, now let's give someone else to have the chance. (In a way, I see it as rather selfish to ask for another Day of Captaincy, or eyebrow-raising in the least.) The village benefits the more we have different people PMing and thus forming ideas of each other every Night. And like people have said, it's not good to have a wolf captain or a gifted captain, so it's safer to change them regularly.

Eyebrow-raising, you say? Why? And it's not that I would come and shout "yaaay I want to be Captain, make me Captain one more day!" I just asked, if you want to see, I said:

Originally Posted by me

Btw. One topic to ponder (after other things, but just to say it before I am gone) - as I figured out, the Captain really can adjust his lynch-stopping powers only on the second Day of his Captainship, if he is still in office, so... do you folks want to change your Captain, or are you fine with keeping me at least one more Day (it would also help me to kind of make a better picture of things, being able to pick more BGs on the next Night) and then just see? Of course it's all the matter of how much you trust me etc., but even for further "usage" of the Captains, I have been thinking that given how the rules are, it would perhaps be better to just have them for at least these two consecutive Days. So one more thing you can think of or discuss or ponder while I am not around.

The point is rather: okay, we have this rule that Captain could do something with the lynch, but he needs to be there for second Day, I have been there for one Day, do you want to see it or not? You can see for yourself that it wasn't "come and make me a Captain again, it was so great!".

Speaking of that... is there any other idea of making somebody a Captain, other than myself and Roa?

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Secondly, by “reasoning in Rune’s favor” I mean people who were trying dissuade others from lynching him while not openly supporting him. While one wolf may have openly voted to make Rune captain, others may have been more subtle. When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him.

I am not sure it's something a Wolf would do, wouldn't it be kind of too obvious but at the same time too little effective? Isn't it far easier to just cast a vote for somebody else?

And anyway, whatever you keep saying here, I wasn't "over and over" saying that "Rune is innocent and shouldn't be lynched". I just said that I do not feel okay with lynching him, i.e. primarily myself, and later also the others. Have you read what I said about the Hunter? That was one of my strong reasons, more in the end.

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday?

Like what? I already am a Captain, I am not striving for Captainship, but when I am already there, I have nothing against staying there. What would you do in my place? (If you are innocent?) Wouldn't you want to get the chance to talk to two more people at Night, to see? I have no problem if I am removed from office, but of course - and now again try to think if you were in my place - when I am here, I am sure no Wolf can get my place. It's personal point of view and of course others don't share it, because they don't know that I am innocent. Nothing more than that, the thought I have behind what I say is my choice and it's quite easy. The rest is of course upon the rest of you.

Nienna, Hakon was found guilty for doing the same thing Rune did- declaring a desire to be captain. He said it oddly, but it was the same. I also suspected him for that reason.

And while Rune was a Wolf, Hakon was a Hunter. Suspicious for the same reasons, but having totally different roles. What did you think about Hakon yesterday, anyway?

[Nogrod]

It's sad indeed to see him leave but well that's how it is.

To make the narration follow the real-life he will be insisting on leaving the company to go for Bree and not continue towards the Shire with others.

Now it's up to you to decide what to do with his announcement.

Meaning: you can either let him leave or lynch him. I thought of offering you a chance of forcing him to stay with the company as someone who just stays around... but maybe you have enough things to vote on already.

But it is a nice idea for some future games: if someone needs to leave the game the villagers could vote whether to let the person to stay in the village as dead weight or not instead of just simply modkilling her/him.

[Nienna]

Master Nog: If we want to keep Legate as a captain after there has been a referendum should we re-vote him or just not vote for the new person?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nienna

If we want to keep Legate as a captain after there has been a referendum should we re-vote him or just not vote for the new person?

I'm not sure if I got your point right but here's an answer to what I thought you meant.

If no one contests his Captaincy he stays in the office. You have kind of selected him "as for now", as long until someone of you wish to have another Captain and vote for it.

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

If it is Legate you choose toDay it will be his second Day in office and he will gain the added powers. If it is someone else the new C. will only have the draw-deciding powers.

In case of a draw in the Captaincy-election itself the old Captain continues.

I hope you got your answer.


There seemed to be a few other questions as well. I'll read the thread through (I'm on the previous page right now) and will then answer the questions in one post.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

So in other words: yes, once the voting starts, it's just voting. If you don't cast your vote, you are not voting for anybody. If you want to keep the previous Captain, you need to vote for him.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not sure if I got your point right but here's an answer to what I thought you meant.

If no one contests his Captaincy he stays in the office. You have kind of selected him "as for now", as long until someone of you wish to have another Captain and vote for it.

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

If it is Legate you choose toDay it will be his second Day in office and he will gain the added powers. If it is someone else the new C. will only have the draw-deciding powers.

In case of a draw in the Captaincy-election itself the old Captain continues.

I hope you got your answer.


There seemed to be a few other questions as well. I'll read the thread through (I'm on the previous page right now) and will then answer the questions in one post.

Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted to know.

[Roa_Aoife]

Greenie

Post 1- Asks Roa to clarify what she meant about her possible captain picks. Doesn’t mind being NG, but doesn’t feel comfortable being captain. Agrees with Legate that we should be careful about bandwagoning on small things, but also points out that on Day 1 small things are all we have. Doesn’t see anything odd with Boro and Fea.

(His first post is very reasonable and straight forward)

Post 2- Ideas on captains: Think Boro and Legate are both clever and active and seem innocent, will probably vote one of them, doesn’t know enough about Rune to trust him, and is afraid to give Roa that kind of power

(Thoughtful and reasonable.)

(PS. I have to say all the people being afraid to give me power has got me thinking, “Oh yeah, I still got it.” )

Post 3- Thanks Roa for the clarification

Post 4- Votes Legate Captain because he seems sensible and innocent. Doesn’t want to spread the votes out, asks what happens in a tie for Captain.

(I personally think one should vote for whomever they feel should receive the vote, regardless if other have voted for them or not, but that’s me and not everyone agrees, innocent or otherwise.)

Post 5- Says that he thinks the wolves will play as they would normally play, and not try to be quiet just because the village is

Post 6- Gets off to let Lommy on.

Post 7- LIST!
Not particularly suspicious: Fea, Nienna, Mac, Kath, Loslote, Nerwen, Roa, Lommy, Boro, Brinn, Rune
Suspicious: Valier, Inzil, Sally, Hakon, Gwath

(I like that he listed her reasons instead of just listing names. I don’t like that she found Hakon guilty for making a bid for Captain, but not Rune for doing the same thing.)

Post 8- Votes to lynch Hakon, because he’s the one who already received vote of her top suspects, and because she doesn’t want Rune to die

(Again, Hakon and Rune did the same thing. Why should then Hakon die, but not Rune? By itself, it’s just poor reasoning. Looked at in the knowledge of Rune and Hakon’s roles, it looks suspicious.)

Post 9 - leaves to let Lommy on

Day 2
Post 1- agrees with what Legate says about people defending Rune, admits that her reasons for voting Hakon were weak, points out herself that the same reasons were used by the people who voted for Rune, apologizes for not voting for a NG, answers Lommy’s suspicion by saying “That’s what I always do”

(So, you can see that the reason for voting Rune was the same as for voting Hakon. Yet before you said that Rune should die and Hakon should. What goes for one goes for the other, so what’s that about?)

Post 2- Thinks we should keep Legate as Captain, thinks that we should change captain regularly, isn’t convinced either way about letting the captain get full powers, still afraid to give Roa too much power.

(So, do you want to change captains regularly or keep Legate? You can’t have both, my dear. And by keeping Legate as captain, you make a choice about letting a captain keep full powers, even though you say you aren’t.)


On the whole, Greenie is mostly reasonable. The only thing is that he suspected Hakon and defended Rune when they were doing the same thing. And that could have been the result of being swayed by the people who kept saying that Rune was innocent looking. Bottom line- eh... it's iffy.

Edit; crossed with Legate down

[Nerwen]

Roa, Greenie is a "she". just letting you know.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Roa, Greenie is a "she". just letting you know.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

I couldn't remember, so I went with male. Sorry Greenie.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure it's something a Wolf would do, wouldn't it be kind of too obvious but at the same time too little effective? Isn't it far easier to just cast a vote for somebody else?

It's more effective when you do both. That is, provide someone else for the noose (You were looking for someone who had already been voted on or had suspicion on them for your vote target) while ALSO trying to dissuade others from lynching him. Obvious? Perhaps. But some people play obviously because no one will believe it, and you have been bold in the past. You couldn't have known Hakon was the hunter. If he hadn't been, Rune would be captain right now, and you would have very little suspicion coming your way.

Originally Posted by legate

And while Rune was a Wolf, Hakon was a Hunter. Suspicious for the same reasons, but having totally different roles. What did you think about Hakon yesterday, anyway?

Read what you just quoted. I just said I found Hakon suspicious. At the time, however, Rune was the one who stood a chance of becoming captain. My thought process was that they could both be wolves. It was likely only one of them, but I didn't know which one. I saw that Rune was going to become captain, and I was so convinced that either he or Hakon was a wolf that I couldn't let him have that role. So I did two things: I tried to get him lynched, and I tried to put up someone else for captain that I didn't have a clear picture of at the time. You were the only person who stood the chance of beating him in Captain votes, so I went for you hoping that others would follow suit and we could keep Rune out of the captaincy. It didn't work, and Hakon had to save our butts. But had they both lived, I would have suspected them both today.

[Roa_Aoife]

Also, Nienna, why do you want to keep Legate as captain? (Just want to hear your reasoning)

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Also, Nienna, why do you want to keep Legate as captain? (Just want to hear your reasoning)

I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch. He would also be able to pick two people to talk to tonight and he will be able to form more opinions of people. I think he did a good job as captain last night and asked reasonable questions and gave well thought out answers.

Basically: If we are going to have a captain, I want it to be somebody I trust.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nienna

I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch. He would also be able to pick two people to talk to tonight and he will be able to form more opinions of people. I think he did a good job as captain last night and asked reasonable questions and gave well thought out answers.

Basically: If we are going to have a captain, I want it to be somebody I trust.

Alirght, why do you think he's innocent?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Alirght, why do you think he's innocent?

I started thinking he was innocent at this point:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Haha, okay, I may as well post what I thought of, because I considered it a brilliant idea and it took me a few seconds to realise that it actually is not much of a help (if you say it just like that). After reading Nienna's post, I thought: "Hmm, Nienna is either an innocent... or a wolf."

Brilliant revelation, isn't it? Though you see, even though it seems like stating the obvious, the point is the dynamic behind the thinking. I have concluded that myself, I wasn't told that by the rules.

Well anyway, I may as well ask, Nienna, are you innocent?

This just doesn't seem like something that a wolf would ask. He is also being logical and not trusting my word but taking it with everything else. He is making sense and defending his positions. I don't see what you do with him being contradictory.

While we were Night talking he asked us why we thought he picked us and gave us opportunity to ask him questions. He answered our questions freely and he did nothing that would make me suspect him of wolvery.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

It's more effective when you do both. That is, provide someone else for the noose (You were looking for someone who had already been voted on or had suspicion on them for your vote target) while ALSO trying to dissuade others from lynching him. Obvious? Perhaps. But some people play obviously because no one will believe it, and you have been bold in the past. You couldn't have known Hakon was the hunter. If he hadn't been, Rune would be captain right now, and you would have very little suspicion coming your way.

Aaah okay, I can see your point. Good. Though, I already said what it was - no discouraging. And there was this personal aspect, I am saying it once again, that I thought Rune, given his daring approach, might have been a provocative Hunter, and since he voted me, I was not sure whether with his death I would not have died, if he were the Berserk or the Day-killing Hunter. I wanted to keep him undisturbed at least one more Day to try to get a better reading of him.

Read what you just quoted. I just said I found Hakon suspicious.

Oh, ok. I thought that by "him" you meant Rune.

EDIT: x-ed since the post I quoted

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Aaah okay, I can see your point. Good. Though, I already said what it was - no discouraging. And there was this personal aspect, I am saying it once again, that I thought Rune, given his daring approach, might have been a provocative Hunter, and since he voted me, I was not sure whether with his death I would not have died, if he were the Berserk or the Day-killing Hunter. I wanted to keep him undisturbed at least one more Day to try to get a better reading of him.

And this is the problem with looking for gifteds. Leave it to the wolves, don't bother with it on your own.

[Roa_Aoife]

*sigh* The day ends in 5 hours and once again there's been hardly any activity. Legate is my strongest suspect at the moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

*sigh* The day ends in 5 hours and once again there's been hardly any activity. Legate is my strongest suspect at the moment.

Really? Interesting. Because of what - because of that I, as you say, "supported" not lynching of Rune, and because I, as you say, "ask for" being a Captain? Is there something else?

Anyway, whom else do you suspect, apart from me? You can just tell a list of people, you don't need to elaborate in any deep ways. But since you say "strongest", I would like to know whom else could you suspect.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

And this is the problem with looking for gifteds. Leave it to the wolves, don't bother with it on your own.

Well, I wasn't looking for Gifteds. I wanted to know whether he's not perchance going to kill me, you see

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Roa

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row.

I think this is quite a strong statement, to be honest, for surely there are two sides to the issue.

Originally Posted by Nienna

I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch.

I agree, to some point, though we have to bear in mind that even if the Captain has the village's best interests at heart it doesn't necessarily mean he can help out in a lynch (meaning that an innocent Captain, too, can get it wrong). On the other hand, I agree that Legate feels pretty innocent, and I think we all know he's smart, so he would, at least in my opinion, be a safer choice than somebody else. Also, I think we should remember that the Captain doesn't have to use his powers. (Which is no consolation if our Captain is a wolf, though...) But yeah, I'm a little confused with the Captain issue, don't know what to think.

Originally Posted by Roa

(So, do you want to change captains regularly or keep Legate? You can’t have both, my dear. And by keeping Legate as captain, you make a choice about letting a captain keep full powers, even though you say you aren’t.)

I'd think it was possible to change Captains regularly even if one Captain had two Days in office. However, I'm still not sure whether I want any single player have that much power... So yes, your criticism on that issue was very much justified since I'm flip-flopping like a proper Lommy.

Originally Posted by Roa

(I personally think one should vote for whomever they feel should receive the vote, regardless if other have voted for them or not, but that’s me and not everyone agrees, innocent or otherwise.)

As it happens, I agree. YesterDay I had two choices, each as good as the other, so I voted for the one who had already been voted for. If I had preferred Boro to Legate I'd have voted him.

Originally Posted by Roa

(Again, Hakon and Rune did the same thing. Why should then Hakon die, but not Rune? By itself, it’s just poor reasoning. Looked at in the knowledge of Rune and Hakon’s roles, it looks suspicious.)

Yeah. An excellent question. Maybe it was partly because I know applying that straightforwardly for Captaincy could well be something an innocent Rune would do. Hakon, on the other hand, has striked me before more as the sort of under-the-radar person, and his open desire to become Captain seemed odd because of that. Also, Rune's behaviour in general seemed quite genuine to me. Alas, I was fooled.

Originally Posted by Roa

I couldn't remember, so I went with male. Sorry Greenie.

No problem dear!


EDIT: x-ed with Lehag (yeah I intended to type Legate... ), Nienna and Roa