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[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya, what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

Rivendell: the somewhat unexpected flood which destroyed the Black Riders might be one example of where the Ring's power, as I believe, was used. Though who knows - the text sounds almost as if the spell was there permanently, more like a "trap" ready to set off, and now the question is only whether it was made by the Ring's power or by some other power. (Personally I have always thought it was the Ring, but I have heard also other opinions.)

Originally Posted by FotR, Many Meetings

"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released."

And as for Lothlórien, Galadriel, after she revealed her Ring to Frodo, said:

Originally Posted by FotR, Mirror of Galadriel

But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy.

So as if you had just asked for it yourself, skip For that matter, there were unusual things at work around Lórien anyway, reported elsewhere, like the strange mist that came out of Lórien when Eorl and his riders were coming south, and it protected them from being spotted by Dol Guldur (see Unfinished Tales).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Elves make good guards, and Eagles make good scouts, but I find it hard to believe either would be capable of completely safeguarding the Last Homely House. I'm not saying Vilya was the only protection Rivendell had, but I think it was what gave Elrond the ability to bring the flood at least.

'The river of this valley is under [Elrond's] power, and will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford.'

FOTR Many Meetings

How would Elrond possess such power alone? Though great among the Eldar remaining in ME at that time, and surely one of the wisest of them, he had never lived in the Blessed Realm, and lacked the 'Old World' strength of people like Finrod Felagund or Círdan. It could be argued that his Maia blood might have been a factor, but then, I wonder why we don't see evidence of any 'supernatural' powers from him before he took possession of the Ring. Sauron would have wiped him out in the Second Age if not for the Dwarves of Moria.

[skip spence]

Yeah, maybe it's time for me to re-read FotR, eh Legate?

Considering what you've said I agree that the two rings had something to do with defending the respective realms. If have time I might return with some additional thoughts on the subject.

[alatar]

Thank you all for your wonderful posts! I hadn't expected/predicted that this is where the thread would have gone. That said...

- I'm currently researching Rivendell more to put some weight to the inference that visitors stopped by.

- How long could an unrelated Elf stay, and if so would he/she have to 'kick in' some help?

- When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

Sounds like an opportunity to open a hobbit bed and breakfast -- though with hobbits, there would probably have to be more meals than just breakfast thrown into the deal.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

excellent ad Alatar, can I book online?

perhaps Switzerland is the second-choice holiday destination (dunno if Elrond accepts Mastercard)

so, interesting pic of Rivendell by JRRT and explanation of its possible inspiration here-

Rivendell Switzerland

and some quotes from that site-

"not only the similarity between Tolkien's painting of Rivendell and the Lauterbrunnen, Valley, but also:
a) that Tolkien had visited Lauterbrunnen in 1911
b) that he had come down into the valley by an unusual route that extactly mirrors the rather perverse route his charaters insist on taking into Rivendell
c) That Lauterbrunnen essentially means the same as Greyflood & Hoarwell
d) That Tolkien mirrored the sound of the name Lauterbrunnen itself in the English and Elivsh names for the Rivendell river: ie Loudwater & Bruinen.

Notice the 'perverse route' into Rivendell, that was, in The Hobbit, only possible to follow by looking for small white marker stones that were often overgrown.

It seems strange that Elrond held out against Sauron's Second Age army in what is essentially a large unfortified country house in a valley. However I think there must have been some peculiarities of geography going on here, for example the cliffs dominating Rivendell being inaccessible from the 'outside' due to sheer drops or raging torrents or somesuch. Also the route into the Valley must have passed some 'choke points' where a company of good bowmen could effectively hold off an army indefinitely.

On hospitality, I think there are traditional rules in many cultures that a guest should be treated most generously, even should they be a rival or enemy. I'm sure this was heavily linked with social status, so a wandering knight might be feasted and given a seat at the lord's table, whereas a ruffianly vagabond would be given some scraps and allowed one night in the stables.

I think unrelated elves would be very welcome at Rivendell (and I'm pretty sure that Thranduil, for example, was regularly in touch with Elrond. Galadriel and Cirdan definitely were). I'd also think that the elves would have had sufficient social grace to limit their stays to a reasonable length, though I bet Elrond had a few Osanwe-ish tricks up his sleeve to give those who overstayed their welcome 'itchy feet'. In our history young noblemen often joined the household of an allied lord, partly fostering (perhaps partly as a hostage) moving on to join the Hearth-Troops of their host to gain military experience.

Meanwhile hobbits in Bree, I guess the ideal for Sam would have been to find a long-lost relative and be put-up by them. I guess otherwise some hobbits took in lodgers, or did a B&B (or as Ibrin says B&B&B&B) though with hobbit generosity it'd be like two grannies refusing to let each other pay for tea when the guest offered some payment.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by alatar

When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?

I imagine it'd be something rather like a homestay. Sam is banking on the idea of hobbit hospitality that existed within the Shire--hobbits may be insular but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take a guest in, even if he is from all of twenty miles away!

However, I have to wonder whether that same courtesy actually existed within the Breelands, where iller sorts of people prowled and not everyone was to be trusted to behave himself in someone else's home. No doubt Sam is thinking that hobbits are hobbits and that's enough to be able to trust someone else--especially if that someone is relatively familiar in a new setting.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

No doubt Sam is thinking that hobbits are hobbits and that's enough to be able to trust someone else--especially if that someone is relatively familiar in a new setting.

The four of them probably could have found some lodging for a night or two at least. After all, the Shire hobbits were descended from the Breelanders, and that fact was commonly recognised.
Any chance of that would have been gone after Frodo's 'prank' with the Ring however. Even the Underhills from Staddle who had taken to Frodo had shunned him after that. News of that affair likely would have traveled fast.