IHOP - The International House of Panacea

[Mnemosyne]

I wonder if Vilya was able to create a miniature, less effective version of the Girdle of Melian?

That way earlier in the Age if people were fleeing across the mountains due to turmoil there could be some way that the Last Homely House would be made nice and Homely, but less of a security threat, since anyone evil wouldn't even find it, right?

Just trying to figure out ways to square Rivendell's generosity away with its hidden nature.

[Mithalwen]

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

[skip spence]

For now I'll settle with applauding the op. Rated three silmarils indeed!

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Brilliant Alatar!

I seem to remember from the Hobbit that Rivendell was pretty well hidden - even Gandalf struggled a bit finding the way. We don't get a description of the last stage of the hobbits' journey in but they were with Glorfindel and Aragorn who obviously knew the way. The Dunedain would probably know since they were semi-based there but I doubt its exact location was widely known among non-Rivendell elves. Legolas probably knew through contact with Gandalf and Aragorn re Gollum's capture (if not from family connection with Celeborn who had lived there a while).

Boromir found it either because he was "meant to" or because in such times the elves were not complacent enough to rely on geography and enchantment and set a watch and found him. We know that other elves than Glorfindel were sent out to look for Frodo - maybe one of those found Boromir in the vicinity.

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

It's as if everyone "went Tokugawa" in the 3rd Age, but there really is no clear explanation as to why.

[Bêthberry]

I have to second Mithalwen. Brilliant ,alatar!

I think your question of whether you or any of us would have to pay points to the global economy of Middle-earth. Travel depends upon either abject poverty, which forces one to travel to seek economic means, or disposable income and time, which lures one to seek out play. It also depends upon a balance of ease and effort. Some will travel only if guides make it easy. Others will rough it in the bush for the challenge of it. Still more, travel depends upon curiosity.

Hobbits by and large didn't experience great poverty, at least in the Third Age and it appears they have enough satisfaction of their play desire in The Shire. Most hobbits also seem a tad too prone to couch tater hood. They also seem not to be terribly curious creatures. Definitely not cats.

Dwarves on the other hand do know poverty and it appears they did develop an extensive system of trade routes to alieviate their economic condition. Their play instinct is, I think, largely dormant (although of course Peter Jackson did attempt to elaborate upon this, much to the consternment of the Bookites--myself being one). This dormancy may in fact have much to do with the apparent dearth of female dwarves and consequentl lack of dwarven progeny. Children do a great deal to encourage adult modes of play. Thus, I don't think that dwarves would harken after Rivendell as they might not know what to do with all that playtime available. They might want to start teaching elves how to do serious metal work.

The men of Middle earth faced variable conditions. Those of Rohan had bad experience with Dunlenders and I think this caused them to consider closing off borders and limiting contact with other cultures, even though it appears their society was struggling with incursions of others who were seeking economic advantage. Bad kharma lessens one's curiosity I think. As for play, warrior cultures tended to elevate war to a high level of game, so perhaps for them their play instincts were largely subsumed by their war games.

Gondor of course was terribly self-centred and self-satisfied and as such really lacked the truly sophisticated urge to seek out new lands, whether class M or not. There seems to be little economic motivation for Gondorians to travel to Rivendell, although Far Harad probably offerred a range of goods and services not to be found in the Last Homely Home. Better weather likely as well.

What this says about our changes of a spa-like excursion to Rivendell I'm not sure. I do know that when I visited the money changers yesterday the only currency I was able to buy was pound sterling. Neither mithril nor gold nor simaril were available for exchange despite the fact that I am attempting a journey myself to The Shire or at least attempting to replicate a Middle earth experience of some sort.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

Yeah, and even at the height of Roman power, the lands beyond the borders of the Empire were often unknown and mythical even it the distance to them wasn't that great. Scandinavia for example was largely unrecorded by Roman Historians, who speculated based on scant knowledge that a wondrous Ultima Thule lay north of all known civilization.

But to return to the original question: What would have happened if a small group of travellers, with intent unknown, were to find the way to Elrond's abode? That is an intriguing question to speculate on. Would they be met welcomed, wined and dined, or would they be met with hostility?

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

I guess that's just the point. Gandalf himself in the Hobbit, and he must have been there many, many times, wasn't sure about the location of the valley itself and had to look around all the time - as Mith has already mentioned. I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Let us not also forget that by the time of establishing, Rivendell was actually surrounded by Sauron's forces, but not defeated. Back then, though, I believe there were far more soldiers there than in the late Third Age. However, it's interesting to note that Rivendell was actually established as a temporary (or so it probably seemed back then) camp of defense against Sauron. (Elrond as a commander of a part of army was basically besieged there, being driven into wilderness, and he probably saw this nice hidden valley which was easy to protect, and so he did. Something along the lines of Helm's Deep.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

A very good analogy which I had failed to consider. I should have thought of that instead of being fixed on the insularity of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It's as if everyone "went Tokugawa" in the 3rd Age, but there really is no clear explanation as to why.

Speaking of Japanese things, I'm wondering if another factor might explain the lack of travel. I'm thinking of some system a la the one set up by the Tokogawa shogunate's immediate predecessors, the Toyotomi (specifically Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the first shogun of the line) wherin people werent allowed to leave thier han (fiefdom) without specific permisson from thier local lord. if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

I don't think that was necessarily the case. Gildor and his group were seen aimlessly wandering about the Shire. Dwarves travelled the East-West Road on a regular basis, going to and from their own habitations.
There was obviously some intercourse between Gondor and Rohan.
I don't think travelling was frowned upon in itself. It's more that by the time of the War of the Ring, the various 'speaking peoples' were generally estranged from one another, and didn't know who of alien race they could trust.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Speaking of Japanese things, I'm wondering if another factor might explain the lack of travel. I'm thinking of some system a la the one set up by the Tokogawa shogunate's immediate predecessors, the Toyotomi (specifically Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the first shogun of the line) wherin people werent allowed to leave thier han (fiefdom) without specific permisson from thier local lord. if such a system was in place in parts of ME it would go a long way to explaining a lack of traveling (it is after all hard to engage in casual traveling if it's in fact illegal). I'm not saying no one is allowed to travel (nomadic people like the rangers obviosly do) but those that do may be the exception, not the rule

I never got the impression that there were any internal passports in effect anywhere in ME, except maybe for Mordor or the later years in Numenor. That's the stuff of sordid, modern dictatorships and the Russian Oprichniki.

The Japanese did have another interesting custom called sankin-kotai which was used to control noble families and prevent rebellion.

From wikipedia:

The details changed throughout the twenty-six decades of Tokugawa rule, but generally, the requirement was that the daimyo of every han move periodically between Edo and his han, typically spending alternate years in each place. His wife and heir were required to remain in Edo as hostages. The expenditures necessary to maintain lavish residences in both places, and for the procession to and from Edo, placed financial strains on the daimyo making them unable to wage war. The frequent travel of the daimyos encouraged road building and the construction of inns and facilities along the routes, generating economic activity.

[Bêthberry]

I miss Marileangorifurnimaluim. And a certain thread by Mister Underhill about Rings and things.

Oh, I just thought of something the flyer could include: casinos. Surely Elrond took a gamble on Frodo, and maybe others at Rivendell might also be given to playing the odds.

That is all.

[Mithalwen]

As someone who can only maintain a poker face online (but never for real money just in case you are worried!) I can only imagine it must be a nightmare having to cope with osanwe kenta as well. Elrond was forsighted as well. Aiee.

And know I may have to "Cast LOTR with poker players". Galadriel would obviously be Victoria Coren but I suspect Boromir 88 will kill me if I suggest that the Devilfish would be Sauron... dark lord and jeweller though he be .