Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

aelrliecn · 09-13-2009, 03:21 PM

The title says it all.

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

However, all that being said... There is a textual precedent for a being who is far more powerful acting fearful of a lesser being whom he could (and did) squash like a rat: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin. If you recall, at first, Morgoth cowered in Utumno in fear of Fingolfin's wrath. But then of course he came forth, got sliced in the achilles, screamed in pain, then promptly dispatched Fingolfin.

alatar · 09-14-2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelrliecn

The title says it all.

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

However, all that being said... There is a textual precedent for a being who is far more powerful acting fearful of a lesser being whom he could (and did) squash like a rat: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin. If you recall, at first, Morgoth cowered in Utumno in fear of Fingolfin's wrath. But then of course he came forth, got sliced in the achilles, screamed in pain, then promptly dispatched Fingolfin.

Well said, aelrliecn, and Welcome to the Downs!

Even if Gandalf was powering down and the Witch-King buying boots thrice his former size, I still think that PJ did those of us Gandalf fans a disservice by not putting at least a blank expression on the prone Gandalf's face. Even if he were afraid, we know that he would at least go down swinging.

Todorius · 10-27-2009, 01:43 AM

Hi,
I am new to this forum and have read this topic with great interest.
I have to say that I also feel so disturbed by the scene Gandalf vs Witchking eversince I have seen it the first time 5 years ago. Honestly, I wanted to punch the monitor when I saw it. To me, this scene represents an outrageous break with the spirit of Tolkien. It is clear that Peter Jackson or his crew have not understood the meaning of the figure of Gandalf in any way. For me, they did an excellent job on the first movie, a good job on the second one, and even the beginning of the third one was good. Then everything falls apart and drifts towards cinematic nonsense.
Well, that's why I decided to do an edit of the scene Gandalf vs Witchking 3 years ago, I did my best, still it could be much better if someone had the necessary tools:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFRnsYdP2Y

also, I enhanced Gandalfs power in to other scenes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdVUTEs57M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KiN-4thC6U

Maybe you like it.
I know it will not fully restore the dignity of Gandalf the white, but at least it is a try towards that direction. It could be done much better.

Pitchwife · 10-27-2009, 04:41 PM

Welcome to the Downs, Todorius, hope you'll enjoy being dead!
Good jobs on those edits - yep, that's much more like the Gandalf we know and love. I especially liked the part where he makes the broken gate close again, before Grond breaks through the second time, reminiscent of the shutting-spell he used in Moria (Chamber of Mazarbûl).
(A little bit of nitpicking, if you don't mind: the spell Gandalf tried at the west gate of Moria - "elvish gate, open for us" - isn't really appropriate here, as the gate wasn't elvish and he wanted it to stay closed, not open; but I realize you had to use something, and as long as one doesn't know what the words mean (most movie-goers probably didn't) it works nicely.)

Todorius · 10-28-2009, 09:09 AM

Thanks a lot.
I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects. There is still a lot of room for improvements.

Yeah, you are right with the spell, I took it from FOTR where Gandalf tries to open the gate of Moria. It matched so well to the lip movement at the gate scene, and sounded like an impressive spell in that context.

Pitchwife · 10-28-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todorius

Thanks a lot.
I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects.

Or better still, an entire better movie. Preferably with Tom Bombadil in it.

Morsul the Dark · 10-28-2009, 09:34 PM

I agree this bit in the movie was odd the rest of the trilogy was great fun to watch and got me hooked on Middle-Earth Peter Jackson had to appeal to both Book Fans AND Movie Fans He He had to compromise with people and we have to compromise with him.... He had to add things lose things and even change things I'm sure we could pull off a 100% Perfect rendition of LOTR if we pooled our resources but who would watch it? answer not enough to make it profitable...though now that the idea is there it DOEs sound like fun...

Mugwump · 12-05-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aelrliecn

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

Well... The Ainur came in varying degrees of greatness, and so did balrogs. "Mere" elves killed balrogs, who were Ainur, and Tuor, a man, killed five of them during the fall of Gondolin. Of course, these balrogs were much weaker than the great Balrog of Khazad-dum. I think in a pitched battle Gandalf would have beaten the Witch King, but that doesn't mean that the Witch King did not have resources. This guy was thousands of years old. He was a great king of old with lots of experience and wizardry at his command. He was imbued with unknown powers from Sauron as well. He was no longer a "mere man."

But even with that, I generally agree with you all. After all, Aragorn had quite handily beaten the Witch King and a few of his buddies up on Weathertop (which although it's in the text is, in a way, more puzzling to me than his great power later on in the film). So I don't understand either why Gandalf seemed to be so cowed by this guy. Perhaps the Witch King had some sort of spirit-killer at work especially effective against Maia, kind of like kryptonite against Superman. Or perhaps after all, in his new incarnation, Sauron was indeed able to imbue him with some part of his own strength, so that in a sense Gandalf was not facing merely the Witch King at that moment but Sauron himself.

But if that's not true, then I can't explain it either. Guess it's one of those unfortunate flaws in the movie. Hey, it could've been worse: originally Jackson was going to have Sauron take physical form and fight Aragorn at the gates of Mordor! (*shudder*)

Eönwë · 12-05-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Aragorn had quite handily beaten the Witch King and a few of his buddies up on Weathertop

And didn't Gandalf himself hold them off on Weathertop too?

Mugwump · 12-05-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And didn't Gandalf himself hold them off on Weathertop too?

Yeah, but the Witch King didn't have that wicked flying dinosaur mount at the time. Maybe it was that animal's breath that broke the staff and nearly made Gandalf pass out.

JoltFlame · 12-13-2009, 04:05 PM

I believe the Lord of the Nazgûl equals Gandalf in strengh and stature.

obloquy · 12-13-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

I believe the Lord of the Nazgûl equals Gandalf in strengh and stature.

Me too!! I also believe that the earth is larger than Jupiter!

JoltFlame · 12-13-2009, 04:35 PM

The staff of Gandalf is shattered and the wizard is cast down, before The Black Captain. What does that tell you?

09-13-2009, 03:21 PM	#1
aelrliecn Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1	Undead vs. Lesser Gods The title says it all. The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor. However, all that being said... There is a textual precedent for a being who is far more powerful acting fearful of a lesser being whom he could (and did) squash like a rat: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin. If you recall, at first, Morgoth cowered in Utumno in fear of Fingolfin's wrath. But then of course he came forth, got sliced in the achilles, screamed in pain, then promptly dispatched Fingolfin.

10-27-2009, 04:41 PM	#4
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Welcome to the Downs, Todorius, hope you'll enjoy being dead! Good jobs on those edits - yep, that's much more like the Gandalf we know and love. I especially liked the part where he makes the broken gate close again, before Grond breaks through the second time, reminiscent of the shutting-spell he used in Moria (Chamber of Mazarbûl). (A little bit of nitpicking, if you don't mind: the spell Gandalf tried at the west gate of Moria - "elvish gate, open for us" - isn't really appropriate here, as the gate wasn't elvish and he wanted it to stay closed, not open; but I realize you had to use something, and as long as one doesn't know what the words mean (most movie-goers probably didn't) it works nicely.) __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

10-28-2009, 09:34 PM	#7
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	I agree this bit in the movie was odd the rest of the trilogy was great fun to watch and got me hooked on Middle-Earth Peter Jackson had to appeal to both Book Fans AND Movie Fans He He had to compromise with people and we have to compromise with him.... He had to add things lose things and even change things I'm sure we could pull off a 100% Perfect rendition of LOTR if we pooled our resources but who would watch it? answer not enough to make it profitable...though now that the idea is there it DOEs sound like fun... __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

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10-27-2009, 01:43 AM	#3
Todorius Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3	Hi, I am new to this forum and have read this topic with great interest. I have to say that I also feel so disturbed by the scene Gandalf vs Witchking eversince I have seen it the first time 5 years ago. Honestly, I wanted to punch the monitor when I saw it. To me, this scene represents an outrageous break with the spirit of Tolkien. It is clear that Peter Jackson or his crew have not understood the meaning of the figure of Gandalf in any way. For me, they did an excellent job on the first movie, a good job on the second one, and even the beginning of the third one was good. Then everything falls apart and drifts towards cinematic nonsense. Well, that's why I decided to do an edit of the scene Gandalf vs Witchking 3 years ago, I did my best, still it could be much better if someone had the necessary tools: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFRnsYdP2Y also, I enhanced Gandalfs power in to other scenes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdVUTEs57M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KiN-4thC6U Maybe you like it. I know it will not fully restore the dignity of Gandalf the white, but at least it is a try towards that direction. It could be done much better.

10-28-2009, 09:09 AM	#5
Todorius Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3	Thanks a lot. I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects. There is still a lot of room for improvements. Yeah, you are right with the spell, I took it from FOTR where Gandalf tries to open the gate of Moria. It matched so well to the lip movement at the gate scene, and sounded like an impressive spell in that context.

12-13-2009, 04:05 PM	#11
JoltFlame Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16	I believe the Lord of the Nazgûl equals Gandalf in strengh and stature.

12-13-2009, 04:35 PM	#13
JoltFlame Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16	The staff of Gandalf is shattered and the wizard is cast down, before The Black Captain. What does that tell you?