Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[skip spence]

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?

I agree with what skip said here. Sauron has retreated, but of course first the Council would have needed to have enough power to drive him out in the first place. Otherwise, he would have just merrily remained in Dol Guldur. It was certainly not easy to drive him away from there, Gandalf says:

I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur.

which emphasises the power of Barad-Dur, but at the same time it shows that Dol Guldur, if we placed aside Barad Dur, would be still pretty remarkable. That means that Dol Guldur was at its time (and later, after being reoccupied, too - actually, "with power sevenfold", as Haldir [? I think] says) a mighty fortress and not just one tiny hut in the woods; it had its garrison and all sorts of defenses, no doubt. And you will find more quotes showing in one way or another how mighty it was (e.g. Haldir to Frodo on Cerin Amroth, the Appendices - about Galadriel and others, Gandalf's words to Thorin&co. etc.). So, as soon as it was decided to attack (or rather: as late as it was decided) the Council assembled as much strength as they could, and would attack Dol Guldur. Unfortunately for them, Sauron had already learned about that, so he had a back-up plan, that if they come and prove mightier than his forces (which they did), he could easily retreat to Mordor. Sounds logical, doesn't it? But, had it not been for the "devices of Saruman" (whatever it was - spells, machines, or just "plans"?), Sauron would have merrily remained in Dol Guldur (or possibly just moved to Mordor, but Dol Guldur will remain in his hands all the time, without any interruption).

So, I hope it is clear now. In short: Sauron was driven away, i.e. he had to leave Dol Guldur, was forced to do it. However, knowing beforehand about the attack, he prepared himself - of course he would not just disappear, that would have been indeed curious, and besides, there was always a chance that he would actually win the fight against the Council. Also, I doubt he knew "on 13th August at 5:30 AM they will attack", in fact, the Council did not know until very late that they will attack themselves! (It was decided very fast in place.) So, one day Sauron simply looked out of his window and saw the enemies rushing through the forest, and he thought "Ah, so it has come". Therefore, some battle needed to be fought. The other option would be to leave Dol Guldur empty, but when? He could leave on the 13th August at 5:30 AM and it will later be shown that the enemies planned to attack only five months later. Sauron preferred to stay in the place as long as he could, which makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

I have actually a long time ago started a thread touching this topic, I may as well link it to you, if you are interested in the matter: HERE.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

more speculation on the 'attack' on Dol Guldur here (and links within)-

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1511

From the texts I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other whether a physical attack happened. However, I'm inclined to think that there were Elven troops deployed, together with Saruman's devices and some sort of 'magical' backup from the Wise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír. He did not look into it until then! And he did not, for Eru's sake, work together with Sauron! I may jump out of my skin when I hear things like that, sorry, but Saruman was a proud, independant traitor! And if you look just into the Tale of the Years, it will become clear to you. There is this date when Saruman looked into the Palantír, as mentioned above, and there is also the note, I believe, that Saruman's intentions to attack Dol Guldur were to prevent Sauron from searching on the Gladden Fields (before, he wanted to keep him there just for the same reason, in hope to find the Ring if it attempted to get back to its Master).

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

Well yes, but even the end of the War of the Ring involved battles with the Orcs and spiders and whatever was in Mirkwood by that time. So, I am not easy to dismiss the possibility of at least an elven commando being around there. I have to look at Rumil's link yet (thanks for it, by the way!), but at least I am certain in the discussion I linked to in my above post, there was something said about reasons for that.

[skip spence]

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

Yes, that sounds plausible - at least if there was somebody, then the Silvan Elves from Lórien (not sure about Thranduil, don't forget that at the same time there has been trouble with the Dragon and Dwarves) and the others, possibly. Though I find the idea of Saruman's men being there absolutely fascinating - if it were to be so (and it is plausible he would have had at least a servant or two with him, if only for that one would carry his books and the other take care of the horses or something like that), just imagine the simple Isengarders being taken and sent into a far and alien land, what more, to fight alongside the Elves! Hm, okay, actually now thinking about it, it sounds a bit unlikely. After all, the times of Last Alliance were long gone and besides, the Men would have been really ill-suited to fight in such an environment like Mirkwood was, which they were not familiar with at all. But still, a nice idea to play with.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

Oh yes, actually, true, I recalled something like that. Interesting, it seems as if it were a really long time ago to me...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power. As honey-tongued a liar as Saruman showed himself to be, he was an amateur compared to Sauron, who managed to convince the King of Numenor that he was truly surrendering to him and was so sufficiently defeated and demoralized that it was safe to take him back to Numenor as a "hostage." It didn't take long before Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his court, and it wasn't long after "fleeing" Dol Guldur that Sauron openly took up residence in his real stronghold, Barad-dur, and began making trouble on a much grander scale. I'm blanking a bit on some of Sauron's activities in the First Age, but if I'm recalling correctly, he did some "fake fleeing" back then, too. He knows when it's foolish to keep on fighting -- when it's time to employ the maxim "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" -- and if he can fake his enemies into thinking he is fleeing because he is near-mortally wounded or vastly overpowered, even better. That would lull them into an at least temporary sense of relief and security, so that they will not be expecting retaliation from him any time in the near future, and thus may be surprised and caught unprepared when it comes.

My nickel's worth, at any rate.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power.

Thanks everyone for their posts.

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír.

Nonsense? Nonsense! Unfactual perhaps, reaching maybe, but nonsense? Pfffttt! I offered a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and like any good conspiratorial illuminator I eschewed actually looking up silly little points as to who did what with whom and when or where, and glossed over anyone's actual intentions. It's not the facts that make good propaganda, its the juicy story! Geeze, Leggy, get with the program!