Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I should also just mention that every single player knows exactly what her or his role is and discussion of so-called hypothetical roles runs a very high chance of getting somebody to accidentally spill more than they intended about things they're not supposed to know about.

An excellent point - shame you had to mention it.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

But we won't get to know the rules, no matter how much we talked about them! We won't get to know what we are looking for - except that there are lovers. We don't know if the lovers work in pairs or if there's a creature team, every one of them having a lover, and we won't get to know it.

Am I wrong to assume that this game is supposed to go something similar to Di's last game, and in that game weren't there multiple lovers working in pairs? Or perhaps we should completely throw that last game out the window and assume that anything is possible?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I should also just mention that every single player knows exactly what her or his role is and discussion of so-called hypothetical roles runs a very high chance of getting somebody to accidentally spill more than they intended about things they're not supposed to know about.

I really doubt that. I was a wolf once in a game where roles were kept secret - we knew there was another wolf team but the village didn't, so we had to pay extra attention so as not to slip anything (and we succeeded in that). I don't think our baddies would be any less careful.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Am I wrong to assume that this game is supposed to go something similar to Di's last game, and in that game weren't there multiple lovers working in pairs? Or perhaps we should completely throw that last game out the window and assume that anything is possible?

She said some changes might be introduced but didn't tell anything more. It might or might not be like the last game. We can't know.

edit: xed since Legate

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Agan, just questioning: was there something you read that made you suspect there might be both a 'wolf' team as well as individual lovers? Was that something that happened in the last game?

No. It was something that occurred to me while I was writing the very post in which I mentioned it. And no, it's not a theory I would really believe in unless I am proven otherwise. I didn't play in the last game but apparently there were just separate lover pairs.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

You take the defensive mode rather quickly. Why would anyone want to lynch you just because you speculate a little about gifteds in the beginning of Day1? Isn't that normal?

The point was not that someone would want to lynch me because of speculating about gifteds, the point was that today I am too talkative to be silenced but by death. I should probably have said "if someone has a problem with me talking and being annoying and demanding all the attention &c."

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't think so. If there are any Gifteds, that would be a big bonus, and an important thing to know. Because otherwise, we may lynch "weird" people who are behaving unusually just because they are Gifted.

But we won't know if there are gifteds, and we can lynch gifteds without knowing they are gifted anyway. Like I could be a gifted and since I won't be around at deadline you could just lynch me (not that I'd be a gifted - I'm not).

Hah now I know what's the problem with me! My avvie! Lommy once said she can't take anything I say seriously while I have this avatar.

[Lalaith]

Only skim-read so far - I'll read everything closely later tonight.
But I am presuming, for the sake of my sanity, that Di linked to her previous rules for a reason, in that they have some bearing on the current game.

But I don't wonder that this game feels weird. Even if the rules are the same as previously, we will, as Nogs has already shown, face carnage tonight. So there's a certain devil-may-care, eat-drink-and-be-merry-for-tomorrow-we-die feeling about the place.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Aganzir actually looks more like innocent to me lately.

Rikae looks more like innocent to me now, too.

Fea seems to look also innocentish to me.

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I really doubt that. I was a wolf once in a game where roles were kept secret - we knew there was another wolf team but the village didn't, so we had to pay extra attention so as not to slip anything (and we succeeded in that). I don't think our baddies would be any less careful.

But about this, I am not so sure. I think such slips may actually happen.

EDIT: Great! At last I didn't crosspost with anybody.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Fea seems to look also innocentish to me.

All I ever ask for in life...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But about this, I am not so sure. I think such slips may actually happen.

And I said it's possible but very unlikely. If you have to keep in your mind all the time that you know more than the rest, would it make you more careful? And mind you, the game I was speaking of had three newbie wolves and no one slipped anything.

edit: xed with Lal and Fea

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

But we won't know if there are gifteds, and we can lynch gifteds without knowing they are gifted anyway. Like I could be a gifted and since I won't be around at deadline you could just lynch me (not that I'd be a gifted - I'm not).

Wait, one thing. Somehow I did not notice this one before (I probably crossposted with it, later thinking it was the one I already read). What you say does not make sense (syntactically, semantically) with what you reply to. I said: it will be good to know what roles are around, f.ex. if we have Gifteds. Because for example, had I known for sure that there are NO Gifteds in this game now, I would not have any doubts if I found somebody behaving really, really weirdly, and I would lynch him rightaway. But if I knew there are Gifteds, I could start to ponder whether this weirdness is not a Giftedness instead of Wolfiness.
Not sure what you were supposed to say by the comment.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And I said it's possible but very unlikely. If you have to keep in your mind all the time that you know more than the rest, would it make you more careful? And mind you, the game I was speaking of had three newbie wolves and no one slipped anything.

Now thinking of it again, thank you for saying it. Now it makes sense.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What you say does not make sense (syntactically, semantically) with what you reply to. I said: it will be good to know what roles are around, f.ex. if we have Gifteds. Because for example, had I known for sure that there are NO Gifteds in this game now, I would not have any doubts if I found somebody behaving really, really weirdly, and I would lynch him rightaway. But if I knew there are Gifteds, I could start to ponder whether this weirdness is not a Giftedness instead of Wolfiness.
Not sure what you were supposed to say by the comment.

Err in truth I'm not sure. My thinking process goes in Finnish and I'm positive that when I don't pay too much attention to what I write, at least half of my thoughts are lost in translation. And now that I read it, it doesn't make sense to me either.

I suppose the main point was that there's no way we could find out what gifteds there are, if there are any. Ahh and also I had myself as an example of someone who's behaving weirdly, and meant that if I was a gifted instead of just weird and you had a bandwagon against me towards the end of the day when I would be fast asleep, I wouldn't have a chance to come out before it would be too late.
Okay in truth I have no idea where I was getting at with that post.

edit: xed with Gollum

[Gollum the Great]

After what happened last game I find it difficult to trust either Legate or Lommy, but I won't let that bias me. Agan seems jumpy, Legate the guy with a massive brain he always is, and Mac and Rikae ready to go for Agan's throat. The others have made to few (if any) posts for me to make any decisions off of.
Tinkertetonk. Be back soon.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ah, but if you played a cautious wolf, someone might note that that is exactly the strategy that always worked for you before. At least, this way, you have the above excuse ready-made.

ooops.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Stirring the pot? I can see what you mean in Lommy's case, but vague suspicions aren't worth much, are they (until everyone starts echoing them, and, before you know it, you have a pointless, useless bandwagon on your hands which isn't even helpful after the fact for finding baddies...).

Of course vague suspicions aren't worth much, but that was all I had at the point, so why shouldn't I share it?

Talking about useless bandwaggons: I'd like to jump on Aganzir's against Sally.

Lommy is too nice and seems to try to not make any enemies (apart from Aganzir).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Agan seems jumpy

Your reasons please.

Oh and before long you will probably find out that my throat is very popular among these lonely people. Fetishists...

edit: garr xed with Mac

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

After what happened last game I find it difficult to trust either Legate or Lommy, but I won't let that bias me.

Yes, and are you aware that until the last day when I was rightfully lynched, I was a wrongfully suspected innocent?

EDIT: x-ed since Gollum

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Rikae

And, Aganzir, I agree on the gender thing - we should lynch all the females in alphabetical order.

Thanks a lot, darling.

Well, anyway - I'm finally here and I can say right away that I don't suspect anyone. Maybe I'll just make a list.
Groin - No read.
Lommy - Basic lommism, meaning that she feels innocentish but knowing her she could as well be a naughty evil thing who is laughing at us all.
Aganzir - She's indeed playing a bit oddly. Maybe she's a cobbler. She tends to be more smooth as a real baddie and certainly more smooth as a gifted. but then somehow she doesn't feel like an ordo.
Legate - That guy is plain silly. Which means that I should be worried - he plays very differently from what I remember, or at least gives different vibes. He seems somehow more joking and absurd and cheerful than he usually does in WW. As though he had nothing in the world to worry about.. Then another thing related to Legate - I don't know why, but I'm a bit uneasy with the seeming air of"Oooh Legate he's a good wise player let's listen to what he says!" around. Not that we shouldn't listen to him also, but if he's a baddie that attitude can be pretty dangerous.
Kitanna - No read.
Gollum - No read.
Nogrod - Has been surprisingly quiet, I wonder if this is again one of those games where he promises to talk less...
Brinniel - Nice and confused, as always. No idea of what her role could be.
Sally - No idea.
Shasta - Where is he?
Gwath - Where is he?
Rikae - A hard case. No idea as yet.
Mac - Seems innocentish?
McCaber - Where is he?
Fea - I haven't the foggiest idea, could be anything.
Eönwë - No read.
Lalaith - Where is she?
Eomer - Where is he?

This is all I can come up with this far. Nice jokes at the beginning, guys.
Ahem.

Maybe I'll just shut up when I have nothing more to say.


EDIT: x-ed since Gollum

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Rikae

An excellent point - shame you had to mention it.

Being truthful doesn't make the strategy any less effective.

If we let people be silent by agreeing that there's nothing worth discussing, we have nothing to go on. If we force discussion about a specific topic, we force what will essentially be a series of lies from people who know more than everybody else about what's going on. The more lies a person is forced to tell, the easier it is to pick out inconsistencies, as well as it being easier to glean knowledge we probably wouldn't otherwise have. Plus creative thought spawns creative thought.

Ergo, my suspicion is:

There are no werewolves, but there are presumably bad guys who exist as metaphorical werewolves as we know them. There are lovers for at least a portion of the bad guys. The bad guys may or may not (as Agan pointed out) work with both each other and their lovers: so there may be a tangled web of non-ordos with victory in mind, trying to kill everybody but themselves by manipulating others. Does that make sense? I think it does, but I'm not sure.

In that hypothetical situation, say there are like four wolves, all of whom can work together. And we know there's at least one lover, because this is a lovers game. So of those wolves, in this situation, one of them is working with the wolves to kill all of the ordos except for the lover. So in this case, as I see it, the lover-wolf would have to be careful not to reveal which ordo is the lover, because the wolves don't want them to win any more than they want the ordos to. My god this is complicated.

Okay so, so far if we go with Agan's theory that there's a creature team as well as individual sets of lovers, than the bad guys should be even more crippling to each other because they'd have to work together while trying not to. I wish I could be a fly on the wall for those PM sessions if that's a reality. Can you imagine?

Agan, just questioning: was there something you read that made you suspect there might be both a 'wolf' team as well as individual lovers? Was that something that happened in the last game?