Are Orcs That Bad?

[Lalwendë]

The shame is that Tolkien never showed us an Orc who might be redeemed, nor he did he put any in a position where they might be. The characters see them as bad through and through, and in fact we only know that an Orc might be redeemed by reference to a letter Tolkien drafted. We are shown Orcs who talk of retirement and might deduce from that, if we are so inclined, that Orcs are not mere killing machines, but the chance is never put in their way.

That to me makes them less effective as bad guys. They should be shown to have the power of choice over their destinies (and in so rejecting the choice to be good, demonstrate their 'badness') or they should be ruthless and designed to be bad. That to me makes a more effective enemy figure. We see Saruman and Gollum given their chances, why not an Orc or two?

I know this sounds nitpicky, but I've been thinking about it for a while (after being dazzled by the sheer horror of the Daleks and Cybermen - superb creations), and Tolkien never really resolved it to his own satisfaction either. I want to explore why they somehow do not work as an enemy which is truly frightening.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The shame is that Tolkien never showed us an Orc who might be redeemed, nor he did he put any in a position where they might be. The characters see them as bad through and through, and in fact we only know that an Orc might be redeemed by reference to a letter Tolkien drafted.

Although I see your point I don't fully agree. While most characters like for example Sam do see the Orcs as bad though and through this isn't the authors voice. Some of the wiser characters like Gandalf do express views that they in fact don't hate the minions of the enemy but rather feel sorry for them. After the War of the Ring Aragorn also pardons the enemy combatants (including the Orcs) and grants them lands where they will be free to make their own destiny, something he wouldn't have done if he considered them beyond redemtion.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That to me makes them less effective as bad guys. They should be shown to have the power of choice over their destinies (and in so rejecting the choice to be good, demonstrate their 'badness') or they should be ruthless and designed to be bad. That to me makes a more effective enemy figure. We see Saruman and Gollum given their chances, why not an Orc or two?

Well Orcs are bred to be ruthless and mean. The nice and plesant individuals don't stand much of a chance to reproduce and raise a bunch of well behaved kids, I'd guess. From a very young age the only thing they learn to value and fear is power. How could they be anything but mean and nasty?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I know this sounds nitpicky, but I've been thinking about it for a while (after being dazzled by the sheer horror of the Daleks and Cybermen - superb creations), and Tolkien never really resolved it to his own satisfaction either. I want to explore why they somehow do not work as an enemy which is truly frightening.

As I already said, the Orcs work perfectly fine as an enemy for me. Had they been pure evil and justifiable cannon-fodder I wouldn't buy it, it wouldn't be realistic (I know nothing about Daleks or Cybermen).

The naked lunch (borrowing a phrase from one of my favourite authors Bill Burroughs) is that Orcs are Men, simple as. That is also why they are very scary to me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I want to explore why they somehow do not work as an enemy which is truly frightening.

I guess one reason for it is that the orcs in the end lack personality.

I mean, yes there are a few scenes like the one between Gorbag and Shagrat already quoted here where one gets to have a glance into their personalities but they are rare and few and there is no consistent personal character of whom we could read through the book, see him develop to some direction, to see how his dreams and fears play out with the general unfolding of the tale, how their relations to other known characters develop etc...

Also, almost all depicted orcs are not that good fighters or otherwise fearsome opponents as the main characters seem to be able to kill them by tens if not by hundreds. One gets afraid of them most when they threathen hobbits without a human, elf or dwarf to help them out as to hobbits they stand as real threats (but even here Tolkien gives the hobbits the strengtht and guts to beat them when it counts).

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, almost all depicted orcs are not that good fighters or otherwise fearsome opponents as the main characters seem to be able to kill them by tens if not by hundreds. One gets afraid of them most when they threathen hobbits without a human, elf or dwarf to help them out as to hobbits they stand as real threats (but even here Tolkien gives the hobbits the strengtht and guts to beat them when it counts).

That's a good point and one I never liked as an adult. As a kid though I always felt comforted by always knowing that the good guys in the end had the strenght to fend off the Orcs. But yeah, it's silly that Orcs always seem to be weaker, more cowardly and less skilled then the heroes when there's no coherent reason for it being so.

Presumably, Orcs train at warfare and fighting all of their life and would therefore be better warriors than most free men with other interests. Also, Morgoth and Sauron would have an interest in breeding big Orcs, yet they are much smaller than the Men and Elves they spring from. Perhaps Eru's prank that?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I think portraying orcs as poor fighters can be
exagerated. Remember, in LOTR orcs are
gewnerally seen going against the best of the best
of the good guys, Gondor and Rohan in the Third
Age were increasingly militarized societies with highly
trained warriors and systems of warfare, and Sauron
seems to have deliberately bred orcs of various sizes
and capabilities (for example, the tracker orc and his
companion patrolling in Mordor after Frodo and the
"great elf warrior" escaped into Mordor).

[Morthoron]

As Lalwende, skip spence and others have inferred, I believe Orcs presented as much of a problem to Tolkien as it does to we, the readers. There is, of course, the original statement that the wise 'believed' Orcs to be descended from imprisoned, twisted Elves; however, that goes against Tolkien's references to Elves dying of sadness (a sort of emotional suicide), and rape being a cause of such death:

Originally Posted by "Laws and Customs of the Eldar," Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle-Earth.

"Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible, for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed."

Would an elf submit to such abomination as procreating at the behest of Morgoth? It seems unlikely.

Then we pass to the odd mention of Bolg being the son of Azog, which I believe is the only reference to familial relations of orcs anywhere in Tolkien's work. With whom was Azog doing his begetting? I bet Mrs. Azog was a real looker.

We then pass on the the squint-eyed Southerner, half-orcs and Uruk-hai of Lord of the Rings (as well as Tolkiens later assessment that orcs rose from men and not elves). Granted, Saruman was not the first to breed Uruk-hai (that was Sauron's genetic breakthrough, as well as the Olog-hai), but I always thought it comical the way Peter Jackson presented the Uruk's birthing in mud hatcheries. But really, Tolkien gives such an incomplete view of Orkish domesticity and breeding, that it's really all up to conjecture. One wonders what really was going on in the subterranean vaults of Orthanc or Barad-dur. It's certain that it wasn't pleasant.

P.S. Sorry, I didn't complete my thought (my resident eight year-old Elf princess demanded an audience).

It would seem that Tolkien chose a Jekyll and Hyde approach to Orcs, wherein the overall genetic pattern of Orcs was totally given over to the Hyde aspect of humanity: cruelty, mercilessness, bestiality, thievery and profanity. But I believe somewhere in Tolkien's letters (can't recall where and am too busy to look it up) he speaks of Orkish redeemability and questions whether or not Orcs have souls (I believe I read that somewhere, but not conclusively). When I have time I'll look it up (or perhaps some other enterprising soul can find it).

It seems that Orcs were indeed cannon fodder for Tolkien to handily pile before the bright swords of the righteous, and they are indeed not up to snuff as far as bravery and skill in comparison to their elf, dwarf and mannish enemies; in fact, when Barad-dur collapses the Orcs retreat in chaos, whereas there remain bold groups of Easterlings who bravely fight on to the last man against Aragorn's army. It was perhaps a strategic mistake on the part of both Sauron and Morgoth to rely on Orcs to fill the bulk of their legions.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It was perhaps a strategic mistake on the part of both Sauron and Morgoth to rely on Orcs to fill the bulk of their legions.

But orcs come cheap (or in fact, for free). It takes much more effort (and gold or force) to get allies if you are a Dark Lord.

Also, in addition to they end of my previous post, about orcs enjoying murdering and torturing, I found just one of many examples:

Originally Posted by UT, The Drúedain

[The Drúedain's] losses were heavy in their feud with the Orcs, who returned their hatred and delighted to capture them and torture them.

The only reason I used that was because I was just reading it, as there are doubtless an almost infinite quotes of this nature.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It seems that Orcs were indeed cannon fodder for Tolkien to handily pile before the bright swords of the righteous, and they are indeed not up to snuff as far as bravery and skill in comparison to their elf, dwarf and mannish enemies; in fact, when Barad-dur collapses the Orcs retreat in chaos, whereas there remain bold groups of Easterlings who bravely fight on to the last man against Aragorn's army. It was perhaps a strategic mistake on the part of both Sauron and Morgoth to rely on Orcs to fill the bulk of their legions.

That's what I feel. Orcs are just meat for the killing. Obviously there must be some enemy to be slaughtered in a fantasy novel (or must there? Hmmm...), but the Orcs are just too anonymous, too weak and almost pathetic. Again comparing them with Daleks (it was the frightening superiority of Daleks over humans that brought this into my mind - sorry if you don't know what they are......yet ), Orcs also seem a little bit thick. And this all stacks up to a bit of an unsatisfying enemy.

I have to note though, that the Orcs we see in LotR are very different to those in the Hobbit and again very different to those in the Sil/UT etc. There's very little to show us how 'evil' these Orcs actually are in LotR. On the contrary, they don't seem all that bad, really, talking of retirement and not just killing Merry and Pippin.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

And orcs are brought up to kill and torture for fun, in the same way as people nowadays are brought up to play sports/other games for fun. This is just another sport for them. And some people say that sport is just the body's natural instinct to make people feel superior to others (the ones they beat) and to keep the body fit and ready to fight/kill. And what better way to establish your superiority than to kill someone.

My reservation here is that would it be actually possible to have a functioning society, one with a breeding population, women/females and Orc babies if there was a culture where slaughtering one another proved 'worth'?

Must run, as Shrek 3 has just started and I've been dying to see it!

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's what I feel. Orcs are just meat for the killing. Obviously there must be some enemy to be slaughtered in a fantasy novel (or must there? Hmmm...), but the Orcs are just too anonymous, too weak and almost pathetic. Again comparing them with Daleks (it was the frightening superiority of Daleks over humans that brought this into my mind - sorry if you don't know what they are......yet ), Orcs also seem a little bit thick. And this all stacks up to a bit of an unsatisfying enemy.

But Daleks and cyberman are actually (well, at least partly, but then there is the brain) machines. They have no emotion. They are all part of a whole killing machine. They are the ultimate robotic, patterned movement. There is no variation, no difference. They are effective killing machines, but only as effective as their leader. An orc would run away if about to be killed, a robot would not. Maybe Morgoth liked that idea- that they could fend for themselves when not in use. Orcs are living, breathing beings. Not immortal metal bodis. They are both scary, but in different ways. Daleks and Cybermen are the pinnacle of organistaion, whereas orcs are more like a rabble. But often the come up with their own, horrible solutions.

What I am saying is that they are different types of evil. One works as a whole (Daleks and Cybermen), one works in different ways, but in the same direction.

And anyway, would the Daleks be so interesting if there weren't those "special" ones? There are quite a few episodes devoted to them, just like in LOTR when you get to find out what the orcs really think.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's all very well setting it up that the worst traits of human (mis)behaviour stem from Orcish blood (and quite intriguing), however he neatly skips the fact that in his tales a lot of Elves, Men and Dwarves without a single drop of Orcish blood did plenty of bad things too. It lacks coherence.

Well, not really. The Orcs just do more of the bad stuff that Elves and Men (Dwarves aren't connected- or are they. Originally they were all going to be evil, according to the BoLT, at least I think) do. If elves/men were there ancestors, then I just think that Morgoth brought out their bad side, so much so that it unbalanced the good side. And what about the Evil Men? Thousands of them are killed, and they are the normal humans. I think it makes them more scary when they are enslaved by someone evil, even though they have the capacity to be good.

Originally Posted by skip spence

if we keep it simple Elves and Men share the same kind of physical body and can have children together so Orcs might have their orgins in both peoples.
It's when we start taking about the soul or fea we run into problems.

Are you suggesting Immortal Orcs?

Originally Posted by skip spence

While most characters like for example Sam do see the Orcs as bad though and through this isn't the authors voice. Some of the wiser characters like Gandalf do express views that they in fact don't hate the minions of the enemy but rather feel sorry for them. After the War of the Ring Aragorn also pardons the enemy combatants (including the Orcs) and grants them lands where they will be free to make their own destiny, something he wouldn't have done if he considered them beyond redemtion.

You would feel sorry for someone that was enslaved to do evil if they couldn't do aything else.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, almost all depicted orcs are not that good fighters or otherwise fearsome opponents as the main characters seem to be able to kill them by tens if not by hundreds. One gets afraid of them most when they threathen hobbits without a human, elf or dwarf to help them out as to hobbits they stand as real threats (but even here Tolkien gives the hobbits the strengtht and guts to beat them when it counts).

But during the first book, the only hobbit to kill an orc was Sam. And once in a while, an orc chieftain comes along, and then there's trouble.

Originally Posted by skip spence

That's a good point and one I never liked as an adult. As a kid though I always felt comforted by always knowing that the good guys in the end had the strenght to fend off the Orcs. But yeah, it's silly that Orcs always seem to be weaker, more cowardly and less skilled then the heroes when there's no coherent reason for it being so.

Presumably, Orcs train at warfare and fighting all of their life and would therefore be better warriors than most free men with other interests. Also, Morgoth and Sauron would have an interest in breeding big Orcs, yet they are much smaller than the Men and Elves they spring from.

But in Tolkien's work, all the really tall CoI (Children of Ilúvatar- ooh! Another abbreviation) are good. Look at the Númenoreans (and so, Tuor). And Turgon. But then Thingol could have been better. Anyway, evil characters are often portrayed as being smaller, weaker, cowering/crouching/stooping creatures. And anyway, what about Uruks? (and I'm not talking about Saruman's). Anyway, since Morgoth made so many, he probably didn't care (or were they "Spartan" in their selection of warriors?).

And then again, there is the free will and intelligence question. An intelligent slave would be more capable. Of course, there is the question of rebellion, but maybe being isolated stopped that. Like in Moria, in the Chamber of Mazarbul, once the chieftain died the others ran off (they came back with reinforcements, but that's not the point. In fact, this points even more to the fact that they are more effective). If they had been mindless "machines" then they would have just gone straight to their death. They know when they're outnumbered and get suport. In this way they are more effective, and less die that way. Being selfish just makes them more formidable, as they are less likely to die.
Anyway, it is said that those that fight because they are forced to/payed to will be worse in battle, as they don't really need to win the fight- the only thing that affects them is whether or not they die in the battle itself. The orcs don't need to fight, unlike the "good guys" who would otherwise get invaded and killed.

And orcs are brought up to kill and torture for fun, in the same way as people nowadays are brought up to play sports/other games for fun. This is just another sport for them. And some people say that sport is just the body's natural instinct to make people feel superior to others (the ones they beat) and to keep the body fit and ready to fight/kill. And what better way to establish your superiority than to kill someone. Just like when people go hunting (just so you know, I don't know anyone who does so I don't know how it feels) they establish their superiority and skill over other animals. Also, when it was still legal, being able to hunt creatures that were able to kill Man (like lions, tigers, certain bears, wolves, etc) was considered as a sign of power. Anyway, orcs did find pleasure in making people suffer, especially their most powerful enemies.