Dol Guldur

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be.

Yes, and that's what I am afraid of: I believe, among other things, that Dol Guldur there would look like the picture above.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Not that it seems to make any difference to film-makers, but Gandalf's visit to the dungeons of Dol Guldur was over and done with by the time of The Hobbit. He got the key and the map from Thrain in the dungeons, and those he turned over to Thorin early in the story. They might get around to showing the White Council attacking Dol Guldur, though. And I also shudder to think of it looking like that picture.

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

[Kuruharan]

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

Your memory is not failing you, Amon Lanc was originally probably a place with just some elven settlement, and later the fortress (of Dol Guldur at that time already) was built there later.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

I don't think so. There is the moment where Frodo looks from Cerin Amroth and sees only dark cloud. Haldir, or who is that there, says there is "forest of dark fir" around Guldur and that there is "black cloud above it lately", but nothing much more. And then, when Frodo looks from Amon Hen, he sees only battle of Men and wild beasts in Mirkwood, but not Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

I thought about similar things as well. But then the question arises - how close would Gandalf need to be to recognize Sauron? In Moria, when he was placing a spell upon the door on whose other side the Balrog was, he merely sensed "something he never sensed before". He also sensed the Balrog when he entered the room, but he did not realise it was the Balrog until he saw him (and Legolas said it). So, I think even though he may have had his expectations to find Sauron there, he had to come quite close to him - and still, I'm sure he'd double-check it and not rely just on some feeling - he had to be absolutely sure, not to say "maybe there's Sauron, or maybe there's a Balrog", for example. He seems pretty convinced when speaking to Elrond about it:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion

True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.

Sounds like some enspionage old Gandalf did there, and "taken shape" - may even refer to the fact that he saw him?

By the way - to avoid a double-post, Gandalf indeed entered Dol Guldur in disguise:

Originally Posted by UT, the Quest of Erebor

I remembered a dangerous journey of mine, ninety-one years before, when I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits.

[Kuruharan]

I don't think so. There is the moment where Frodo looks from Cerin Amroth and sees only dark cloud. Haldir, or who is that there, says there is "forest of dark fir" around Guldur and that there is "black cloud above it lately", but nothing much more.

Yeah, that was the passage of which I was thinking. I couldn't remember if there was any sort of description there or not.

In Moria, when he was placing a spell upon the door on whose other side the Balrog was, he merely sensed "something he never sensed before".

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

*ponders*

Some kind of contact or cross referencing may have been required.

[Elmo]

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

Doesn't Gandalf mention something like "like my name is Olorin in the west that is forgotten'? Maybe he's forgotten everything (except that name) before he came to Middle Earth.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints. I suspect Gandalf would probably recognize Sauron, since it would be rather foolish for the Valar to send their servants specifically for the purpose of contesting him, and then take away the ability to identify him; Sauron, on the other hand, might have difficulty identifying Gandalf, at first because he was still concentrating on gathering his own strength again. I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did). The Balrog... well, I suppose it's been a long time since anyone has seen or felt the presence of a Balrog -- though I have long been puzzled over the fact that everyone seems to have forgotten what drove the Dwarves out of Moria. A matter for another discussion, I suppose.

[Kuruharan]

Maybe he's forgotten everything (except that name) before he came to Middle Earth.

I'm not sure "forgotten" is the word I'd use to describe it. "Dimmed" or "veiled" I think describes it more accurately.

It seems to me that it's the other way around

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

Gandalf definitely forgot a lot when he was incarnated:

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.

I don't believe he at the moment remembered some Balrog or even Sauron who was singing with him in the Music. Also, he met them only before the descent to Arda (well, Sauron maybe even later, but still a long time ago), where they still did not have bodies and everything, so his perception of them was different.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints.

Yup, I also think so. But as shown above, I think it worked even the other way around.

I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did).

I believe Sauron knew what Gandalf is, just did not bother to tell his servants, as many of them would not understand anyway. Although...

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.

So if we take this indeed literally, word-to-word, then Sauron did not know. Only Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel; and no one else.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

Exactly (to the first). Yes, something like that (to the second).