Gothmog as Pat

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants. Too grand a name, probably given by Sauron himself.

If you look up I believe I proposed another option, and that's that he gave the name to himself. For a barbarian leader, that wouldn't be unimaginable; and also, look at the parallel with Mouth of Sauron.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" .

Huh? May I ask where did you take the assumption that Khand means East? As far as I know from all Elven languages, "east" is Rómen or Rhun, respectively, but Khand, no way.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alternatively, he could have been a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold a higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul. Also I doubt that Easterling and Southron allies would have been happy to bow to a mortal underling.

And what about Mouth of Sauron? He was high in rank, and I believe if Gothmog was a Man, he would be probably something like MoS. And it's not unimaginable to see Easterlings and so bowing to him... and another thing; the Nazgul did not often lead the armies to war. Except for WK, who was leader also in another fields, there is no remark about the others leading armies. And we know the Nazgul were flying above Pelennor (and maybe were somewhere else as well at that time), but the second in rank after WK could have been some non-Nazgul Gothmog without any problems.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If you look up I believe I proposed another option, and that's that he gave the name to himself. For a barbarian leader, that wouldn't be unimaginable; and also, look at the parallel with Mouth of Sauron.

A barbarian Man as second in command to the WK? I can't buy it at all, sorry, no more than an orc. The Mouth was a Black Numenorean, probably a pure-blood one. And his name if far less presumptuous than Gothmog, evoking someone without identity, totally subservient to Sauron. "Gothmog" was a name of Sauron's equal.

And what about Mouth of Sauron? He was high in rank, and I believe if Gothmog was a Man, he would be probably something like MoS. And it's not unimaginable to see Easterlings and so bowing to him

MOS was high in rank, but surely below the WK and the other nazgul. He was not sent to the Pelennor to serve as WK's second. We have no evidence that he was a warrior. I doubt he was in command at the Black Gate. Sauron saw him as expendable messenger and sent him to the Parley.
By the way, I think Minas Morgul fortress did have someone like MOS - a mortal, probably a Black numenorean, who looked after the fortress when the nazgul were away, who made sure the supplies arrived, orcs didn't sleep on duty and cleared the latrines regularly. But it doesn't make him Second in command to Morgul Lord at Pelennor. Do you really see other nazgul under the command of a mortal? I don't.

Huh? May I ask where did you take the assumption that Khand means East? As far as I know from all Elven languages, "east" is Rómen or Rhun, respectively, but Khand, no way.

I never said it was Sindarin or Quenia. But when "Khamul" is mentioned, "The Easterling" or the "Black Easterling" comes as an explanation, likely translation.

.. and another thing; the Nazgul did not often lead the armies to war. Except for WK, who was leader also in another fields, there is no remark about the others leading armies.

No remark means little. The WK built the kingdom of Angmar close to the lands of the Dunedain - so his actions were well documented. But we do not know what any of the eight other nazgul did between the Fall of Barad Dur and around TA 1800. We know that after the Fall of Sauron they flew East with the remaining orcs (UT). Who knows what kingdoms they built and what battles they fought there?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

MOS was high in rank, but surely below the WK and the other nazgul. He was not sent to the Pelennor to serve as WK's second. We have no evidence that he was a warrior. I doubt he was in command at the Black Gate. Sauron saw him as expendable messenger and sent him to the Parley.

Expandable messenger? Oh my, you are underrating him. No, he wasn't a warrior from what we know, but we are talking about rank, and that was high. A Prime Minister does not normally go into war personally, but his rank is high nonetheless. And a one of the Ministers in a state ruled by Sauron could be named Gothmog, why not? Even if he weren't a Nazgul.

By the way, I think Minas Morgul fortress did have someone like MOS - a mortal, probably a Black numenorean, who looked after the fortress when the nazgul were away, who made sure the supplies arrived, orcs didn't sleep on duty and cleared the latrines regularly. But it doesn't make him Second in command to Morgul Lord at Pelennor.

Do you really believe MoS cleared latrines in Barad-Dur?!!

And yes, I believe there was such a person - the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. And who was that? Gothmog, of course. No problem with this one.

Do you really see other nazgul under the command of a mortal? I don't.

I never spoke about Nazgul. I spoke about the armies. I always believed the Nazgul to be flying around on Sauron's direct orders, ordered to scare people and oversee the battle and eventually report on what's happening. I never counted the Nazgul above Pelennor to be under command of the general, and if they were, then the WK and later they'd leave (among other things to inform Sauron that the First Nazgul is dead, as we read in RotK. Also, WK couldn't have commanded them anyway for example when he was at the Gate).

I never said it was Sindarin or Quenia. But when "Khamul" is mentioned, "The Easterling" or the "Black Easterling" comes as an explanation, likely translation.

Oh, I thought that you take the "ul" part as in the word "úlairi", wraiths. Never mind.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Expandable messenger? Oh my, you are underrating him. No, he wasn't a warrior from what we know, but we are talking about rank, and that was high. A Prime Minister does not normally go into war personally, but his rank is high nonetheless.

And I think you are overrating him. Sure he cut an impressive figure on his monstrous horse at the parley - but was he really THAT great? He was high in Sauron's favor - yes, he showed cunning, cruelty and servility. His job was to relate the Dark Lord's orders to underlings, and to supervise the other servants in the Barad-Dur fortress. Likely he lent his hand in torturing the prisoners - more like a hobby. But it doesn't make him anything like a Prime minister of Mordor. Had he any authority outside Barad Dur? - We are not told that. Was he entitled to give advice to Sauron? I doubt it. He was a sorcerer, as much as a mortal can learn, yes, but, for instance, when the Fell Beast project was being developed, MOS was not in it - only Sauron and the WK (RC).

Also, Sauron didn't hesitate to send MOS to the parley, protected only by ambassador's diplomatic immunity. Could Sauron be 100 % sure that the Lords of Gondor wouldn't chop off MOS's head, like Aragorn did in the infamous PJ's scene? Sauron was treacherous and judged others by his standards - MOS himself was much afraid. That's why I call him expendable.

And let us consider his dream - to become the new Lord of Isengard. Was this position better than Sauron's right-hand man, his Prime Minister? Hardly, but then again MOS never was Sauron's right-hand man.

And a one of the Ministers in a state ruled by Sauron could be named Gothmog, why not?

Gothmog was clearly a military commander, not a minister.

Do you really believe MoS cleared latrines in Barad-Dur?!!

Nay, but he made sure that everything ran smoothly, was in order, including the latrines. If there were a problem of this genre, do you think the orcs would report to Sauron? Nay, they had MOS for it at the top of a long chain of command.

And yes, I believe there was such a person - the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. And who was that? Gothmog, of course. No problem with this one.

I am sure that Gothmog was the Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord)=the WK - not Minas Morgul fortress. And "Lieutenant" here is not a definite army rank (like nowadays) but has the same meaning as second-in-command.

I never spoke about Nazgul. I spoke about the armies. I always believed the Nazgul to be flying around on Sauron's direct orders, ordered to scare people and oversee the battle and eventually report on what's happening. I never counted the Nazgul above Pelennor to be under command of the general, and if they were, then the WK and later they'd leave (among other things to inform Sauron that the First Nazgul is dead, as we read in RotK. Also, WK couldn't have commanded them anyway for example when he was at the Gate).

I believe the nazgul were under the WK's direct orders, not Sauron's. Every army needs a clear chain of command from top to bottom - it is never good when someone other interferes (even Sauron). Even when the WK was on the ground he could have communicated with the others - by cries:

(The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist.)Marquette MSS 4/2/36 RC p. 164

Also at the Ford the WK managed to give Frodo an order (to stop) using Osanwe, so I have no doubt that he could do the same with his own fellows.

If Gothmog was the next-in-rank after the WK among the present nazgul, then the rest would obey him. Of course, all of them would be much demoralized by the WK's fall anyway - after all, he was their captain for 4500+ years...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And I think you are overrating him. Sure he cut an impressive figure on his monstrous horse at the parley - but was he really THAT great?

I'm sure he was (see below).

Was he entitled to give advice to Sauron? I doubt it.

Not sure, but at least:

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

and knew much of the mind of Sauron

Which implies something like that. Not that Sauron is one who takes advice from anyone, but this one had probably the closest to it.

Let me catch you on your own words:

And "Lieutenant" here is not a definite army rank (like nowadays) but has the same meaning as second-in-command.

Second in command, indeed! Now see this (about Mouth of Sauron):

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was

Read what's written there about MoS - there was even debate here back then whether he couldn't have been of higher rank than WK himself (nonsense in my opinion, however not that overstretched).

Also, Sauron didn't hesitate to send MOS to the parley, protected only by ambassador's diplomatic immunity. Could Sauron be 100 % sure that the Lords of Gondor wouldn't chop off MOS's head, like Aragorn did in the infamous PJ's scene? Sauron was treacherous and judged others by his standards - MOS himself was much afraid. That's why I call him expendable.

There's ambiguity in this. For Sauron, everyone was expandable, for ultimately, he did not care for anyone but himself. However, as long as he had some servants who were good for him, he cared about them more than about the others - and MoS clearly belongs in this cathegory. And the scene with diplomatic immunity (MoS's words that he can't be attacked) shows quite the opposite than you suggest to me: he counted upon the diplomatic immunity, do not say "only by", because the codex of honour and all these things were valued in Middle-Earth (cf. Gandalf's response). It was not a sort of custom that can be broken wilfully, no, indeed, only the "low master of treachery" would do that.

And let us consider his dream - to become the new Lord of Isengard. Was this position better than Sauron's right-hand man, his Prime Minister?

Not sure. But he would be like the lord of his own realm, indeed, all the West would be his, and far from Sauron himself, he will be almost free to do whatever he wants (or at least, he naively thought so). Prefect of a large but distant province.

Nay, but he made sure that everything ran smoothly, was in order, including the latrines. If there were a problem of this genre, do you think the orcs would report to Sauron? Nay, they had MOS for it at the top of a long chain of command.

No, they told that to the fifth deputy to the eighth advisor to Mouth of Sauron. That's why the chain of command is there.

I am sure that Gothmog was the Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord)=the WK - not Minas Morgul fortress.

That's more or less the same, in my opinion.

I believe the nazgul were under the WK's direct orders, not Sauron's. Every army needs a clear chain of command from top to bottom - it is never good when someone other interferes (even Sauron).

Yes, but the root of my idea is that the Nazgul were not there as part of the army. They had nothing to do with the attack on Minas Tirith. They were there as "outside force", to mess around and eventually carry messages and scare Faramirs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

"He knew much of the mind of Sauron"
Not that Sauron is one who takes advice from anyone, but this one had probably the closest to it.

He spoke for the Lord - therefore, not to err in rendering Sauron's words, he had to understand his intentions - get some additional explanations. But a spokeseman for Sauron is not the same as his Prime Minister, and far less than his second-in-command.
and see here :

if there was any in the world in whom [Sauron] trusted it was the Lord of Angmar - RC p.262

.

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was"
Indeed, but not the "Lieutenant of Sauron", not his Second in command. The Morgul lord was Sauron's second in command, his most trusted servant, not MOS.

there was even debate here back then whether he couldn't have been of higher rank than WK himself (nonsense in my opinion, however not that overstretched).

Nonsence, indeed, AND quite overstretched IMO.

As I said, the leutenant was not a clear-cut rank. The lieutenant of Minas Morgul Tower is not the same as the Lieutenant of the Morgul Lord - who happens also be the overall head of the army of Mordor and allied forces.

In Minas Morgul, there could have been a man -XXX - the lieutenant of the Tower of Morgul - similar to MOS with similar functions, also, likely, not a warrior but an administrator. But his functions wouldn't entail replacing the Commander of Mordor army when he was slain, anymore than MOS would replace Sauron in case something happened to him. The WK would.

Sauron put the Morgul Lord in command of the Army. Would XXX, his lieutenant of the Minas Morgul tower automatically become second in command of the army? - no way. The Second in command would be appointed separately - and he would be a warrior of high rank, almost certainly another nazgul. Not Khamul, as this one was most probably in the North, but Gothmog.

It was not a sort of custom that can be broken wilfully, no, indeed, only the "low master of treachery" would do that.

And Sauron was one himself and judged the others by his own standards - for instance, he couldn't understand how the other side would reject the Power of the Ring. That's why he lost, ultimately.

Yes, but the root of my idea is that the Nazgul were not there as part of the army. They had nothing to do with the attack on Minas Tirith. They were there as "outside force", to mess around and eventually carry messages and scare Faramirs.

I wouldn't say they had nothing to do with the attack on MT. They were shrieking overhead for several days, but given their mobility, it wouldn't prevent them from being in command of parts of the army. Some were, I think, while the others carried orders and circled over the city. Maybe they took turns to let the Beasts rest. The WK was alone at the Gate and when he came for Theoden, but most likely it was because the others were quite busy elsewhere or maybe the WK sent them away to get all the glory.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was"
Indeed, but not the "Lieutenant of Sauron", not his Second in command. The Morgul lord was Sauron's second in command, his most trusted servant, not MOS.

Yes, but the main point is that he was there, surely Sauron did not trust MoS (though with no doubt he trusted him more than most of the other servants), he did not trust anyone entirely, indeed, as you quoted, if anyone, then WK who was totally subdued by the Ring (so if you can call it "trust"). But anyway, you cannot deny now that MoS was somewhere around the highest ranks, if not second, then third in command. We are talking different levels of command here (and here I think you misunderstood me in the first place) - MoS was not a general, not a soldier, his rank was not military, but "civil", a "politician", indeed, a minister - while WK was a general.

And Sauron was one himself and judged the others by his own standards - for instance, he couldn't understand how the other side would reject the Power of the Ring.

Yes, but he was not entirely stupid and he knew about the laws and customs in M-E. He did not hold them himself, but knew his enemies hold them. Of course there was this possibility that some of the Lords of the West go amok and decapitate MoS, but I doubt Sauron would even have thought of that. And if it even happened, well, collateral damage - but that's not lowering the value of MoS in his eyes; Sauron would probably go mad, in his wrath order to kill all the Westerners, and later, yes, he would appoint a new Lieutenant of Barad-Dur (who will be only happy to achieve higher rank). For illustration, have you ever seen Star Wars? I imagine it like Darth Vader and all these lieutenants of him - or even more, like Darth Sidious losing his apprentices, but with no problems replacing them with new ones when the old one dies. Yet don't tell me they were not important and valued to him when he still had them.