Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

It's just that sayying something like "Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer." That's what gets my back up (the bold text)

Let's put aside the david v goliath Biblical meaning - what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen - the underdog can win. And Mansun, yes I know you won't like me comparing this with a football analogy, but Hereford beat Newcastle many years back!

And then let's add another example, more 'battle' like. a few years ago who would have thought a group of "insurgents" could hold the biggest force on this planet at bay for this long?

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Originally Posted by Essex

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force? Because of Gandalf's triumph over this hulking foe thought to be on a comparable level to Sauron, I could never see the Witch King having enough in him to trouble Gandalf to the death. The Balrog, afterall, was a creature which haunted everyone's darkest dreams, including Gandalf's & those who dwell in Loth Lorien.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle. Therefore Sauron should have been deployed at the end, rather than letting him sit on his throne watching & waiting like a timeless being.

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

Originally Posted by Essex

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force?

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WK WAS 'greater' than Gandalf.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle.

good point. I agree. But then you have to remember that the battle actually was a draw wasn't it? Both Gandalf and the Balrog died. Gandalf grandly states that he defeated his enemy, but he glosses over the point that he had to be brought back to life too!!!!

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

And they probably call each other worse things than that but, no, it doesn't give us a right to call each other fools. That is not prudent at all.

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.

I haven't read that anywhere as of yet........ to quote Tolkien from The Istari" in Unfinished Tales

"with theconsent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodiesas of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth,able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . . And this the Valar did, desiring to amend theerrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by theirown might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to revealthemselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by opendisplay of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good. . . ."

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Originally Posted by Essex

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

How do we know that it was the Balrog that killed Gandalf the Grey? Maybe it was the exertion - he used up all of his power - or the rarefied atmosphere. Maybe it was a result of the Balrog's fall and death that not actively resulted in Gandalf's demise.

[Boromir88]

what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen~Essex

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

I believe in the LOTR it tells that Gandalf first killed the Balrog, then Gandalf died. So a magical shield theory could exist. As another poster correctly pointed out, it seems much more likey that Gandalf had used up all his life power in combat against the Balrog, fell to the ground & lost conciousness.

Recall the words Gandalf told of the 3 Hunters: "None of you have weapons that could hurt me". How then could Gandalf not have a magical ability to shield himself as though he is immune to a dint from Gimli's axe?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

This is a good point, although long ago mentioned in previous posts. The film tells us that the Witch King is much more mightier than Gandalf, even though Gandalf slew the impressive Balrog in a titanic battle. There was no upset here - the Witch King wins hands down as though it were Morgoth himself hammering down Gandalf.

The book tells us that Gandalf is mightier than a Balrog (the most dangerous opponent one can face after Sauron), but his measure of power nevertheless remains to be tested against the enhanced Witch King.

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves; that I have done & conclude that given Gandalf's victory against the Balrog, one could be confident to expect Gandalf to kill the Witch King if he so chosed to do so (albeit through ending his own life via breaking the rules set by Eru).

[CSteefel]

Perhaps I missed it further back in this long thread, but I think that at least these latest posts are missing the fact that Gandalf himself is enhanced when he returns--the White Wizard instead of the Grey Pilgrim. There are numerous instances where Gandalf's enhanced power is mentioned, ranging from the quote above about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli not having weapons to hurt him, to the destaffing of Saruman, etc.

So Sauron may have enhanced the Witch King's power, but Gandalf's power seems to have been enhanced on his return by Eru...

All of which goes to show to me that Peter Jackson completely misread the whole thing and changed the story for some desired dramatic effect...

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves

Exactly. That sums up the whole thread. It is up to us to decide how the battle would have gone. It doesn't make anyone a fool if they think one way or another. We all have an opinion.

I have listened to all the well thought out arguments during this long, long thread. A lot of the arguments make sense, and HAVE changed my thinking somewhat towards the relative powers of Gandalf and the Witch King.

But I still say there is some doubt in Gandalf's mind when he approaches the gate. The tension that Tolkien cranks up to this point is palpable every time I read the book. To think that Gandalf could easily wipe the floor with the WK takes this tension away from the story. In my opinion Tolkien's view that it would be a pretty close battle is brought out in the style of writing, the atmosphere and the set up to the Witch King's entrance into Minas Tirith. To have this grandious entrance by Sauron's right hand man but just to sit there yawning and thinking as you read the book - "hey, no problem, this is boring, Gandalf's gonna wipe his hide anyway" - takes EVERYTHING away from this scene.

PS - Gandalf couldn't beat him anyway as Glorfindel said

(sound of can of worms opening)