Can anything good come from Men?

[Kuruharan]

I'm pondering how the goodness of humanity in Tolkien seemed to be directly related to their level of elvishness. Humanity (or parts of it) did begin their westward migration on their own but other than that I am hard pressed to think of an example of acts in humans that are considered virtuous to some degree in Tolkien that are not informed in some way or another by elven culture.

In large measure in Tolkien humanity is actually an evil race, or at least fights on the side of evil. It only seems to be contact with the elves (and maybe to some extent the dwarves) that humanity learned virtue.

I can think of hobbits as being one example of a "good" Mannish culture that developed (more or less) in absence of elvish influence...but even with them (at least among the ones that were held up as examples of virtue in the stories) elvishness was the standard that they strived for and admired.

Is humanity in Tolkien capable of developing virtue on its own or must it be received from the other races of Middle earth?

Can anything good come from Men?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

In large measure in Tolkien humanity is actually an evil race, or at least fights on the side of evil. It only seems to be contact with the elves (and maybe to some extent the dwarves) that humanity learned virtue.
...
Can anything good come from Men?

Can anything good come from anyone else?
Nothing much happened with the elves that refused the summons, and the more the elves followed the Valar, the greater they became. For example, the Teleri learned shipbuilding and those sorts of things from them, while the Noldor went to Valinor and it was there that they learnt most of what they knew. When they returned, they spread their knowledge.

The Dwarves were created by Aulë and so were most likely instructed by him anyway.

[Inziladun]

Well, I can think of at least one cultural group of Men that were mostly 'good' and appear to have been little influenced by Elves: the Rohirrim. Even though their homes for long years were in Rhovanion, relatively near large settlements of Silvan Elves in Mirkwood and Lórien, they seem to have had little contact with them and instead regarded them with fear and awe.
Of course, in later years they were much enriched by the Men of Gondor, themselves elevated in knowledge and culture by virtue of their ancestral ties with the Eldar of the First Age, but they were already disposed to aid the West against evil even before then, as the Ride of Eorl shows.
The Rohirrim were not nearly as 'high' as the Gondorians even in the latter's fading years, a warrior culture to be sure. Their behavior couldn't really be considered 'elvish' (the killing of Freca by King Helm "Hammerhand" comes to mind), but they were at heart friendly to ideals that would set them apart from the Easterlings, Men of Harad, and others who don't seem to have any redeeming qualities (at least any visible to the reader).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, I can think of at least one cultural group of Men that were mostly 'good' and appear to have been little influenced by Elves: the Rohirrim. Even though their homes for long years were in Rhovanion, relatively near large settlements of Silvan Elves in Mirkwood and Lórien, they seem to have had little contact with them and instead regarded them with fear and awe.
Of course, in later years they were much enriched by the Men of Gondor, themselves elevated in knowledge and culture by virtue of their ancestral ties with the Eldar of the First Age, but they were already disposed to aid the West against evil even before then, as the Ride of Eorl shows.
The Rohirrim were not nearly as 'high' as the Gondorians even in the latter's fading years, a warrior culture to be sure. Their behavior couldn't really be considered 'elvish' (the killing of Freca by King Helm "Hammerhand" comes to mind), but they were at heart friendly to ideals that would set them apart from the Easterlings, Men of Harad, and others who don't seem to have any redeeming qualities (at least any visible to the reader).

Not so sure. The Rohirrim, if I am not mistaken, were presumed to have some connection to the First-Age Edain, even though a small one. Faramir said something like that, unless I am mistaken?

As for the second part of your post: here I think is another problem. We don't know what it would have been like if for example the Haradrim were on good terms with Gondorians, for example if they were in place of the Rohirrim. There is this question of the possible connection of Rohirrim to the Edain, however, connection or not, the Men of Dale, the Dunlendings, the Haradrim, the Easterlings... all were still Men, just some of them stopped on the journey earlier and some later, during the journey to Beleriand. Breelanders were also just "normal Men", and they were being quite nice. Even though, on the contrary, it was mostly the "lesser Men" of Arnor who joined the WK (men of Rhudaur), but people like the Breelanders seemed still good.

But overall - yes, generally, it seems that Men had a tendency to evil rather than to do good. Of course: Arda Marred. Because of Morgoth's intervention from the very beginning, everything was heading towards a sort of decay. Think Númenor, think the overall progress of things in M-E... The only thing that could help it was always some "injection" of something good from the West.

[Kuruharan]

Can anything good come from anyone else?
Nothing much happened with the elves that refused the summons, and the more the elves followed the Valar, the greater they became. For example, the Teleri learned shipbuilding and those sorts of things from them, while the Noldor went to Valinor and it was there that they learnt most of what they knew. When they returned, they spread their knowledge.

True, but the Avari never were associated, as Men were, with immediately falling into evil when they were left to their own devices. Elves on the whole seem to have an innate instinct to the good that Men lacked. Ex. The Elves fled from Melkor and feared him in their earliest days while Men worshiped him.

Even though their homes for long years were in Rhovanion, relatively near large settlements of Silvan Elves in Mirkwood and Lórien, they seem to have had little contact with them and instead regarded them with fear and awe.

The Rohirrim and related peoples had extensive contact with the dwarves in their past, though.

but people like the Breelanders seemed still good.

Now the Breelanders are an interesting study because they were of Dunnish stock way back in their day. The Dunlanders are explicitly mentioned as fearing and shunning the elves and being shunned by them in turn.

I suppose the long years of being in Arnor may have wrought the change in them.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Elves on the whole seem to have an innate instinct to the good that Men lacked. Ex. The Elves fled from Melkor and feared him in their earliest days while Men worshiped him.

Orome a Valar was the Elves' first contact with a higher power; Morgoth was Man's first contact.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not so sure. The Rohirrim, if I am not mistaken, were presumed to have some connection to the First-Age Edain, even though a small one. Faramir said something like that, unless I am mistaken.

I believe the quote is something along the lines of the Rohirrim being 'kin from afar'. They (and the Men of Bree and Dale) apparently came from the same stock in their origin as the Edain, but lacked the direct contact and influence of the Eldar that elevated the latter to their higher state. They may have met with Silvan Elves occasionally, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Elves had much influence on them.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for the second part of your post: here I think is another problem. We don't know what it would have been like if for example the Haradrim were on good terms with Gondorians, for example if they were in place of the Rohirrim. There is this question of the possible connection of Rohirrim to the Edain, however, connection or not, the Men of Dale, the Dunlendings, the Haradrim, the Easterlings... all were still Men, just some of them stopped on the journey earlier and some later, during the journey to Beleriand. Breelanders were also just "normal Men", and they were being quite nice. Even though, on the contrary, it was mostly the "lesser Men" of Arnor who joined the WK (men of Rhudaur), but people like the Breelanders seemed still good.

But why were the Rohirrim already friendly toward Gondor and aiding it in war, even though free of any oaths or bonds to them, if not because of some innate 'goodness' or nobility? Their remote kinship to the Edain may have been a factor, but then, doesn't it seem that those who made the journey westward during the First Age (whether making it all the way into Beleriand or not) did so because of some quality that set them apart from the other Men in the East and South?

[Kuruharan]

Kuruharan, what do you think it is in particular that Elves are able to do to change Men's evil ways?

I think there are two different things operating. The first one is that elves do seem to be more predisposed to goodness (whether that be due to something within or because they were better protected and instructed in the days of their race's infancy is a matter of debate). The second thing is the elvo-centrist paradigm of the books themselves. It must be remembered that all of Tolkien's works are written from an elven or at least elven inspired point of view. This is sometimes a very subtle but always foundational aspect of Tolkien's works. It is clear in some places, like the instance cited by Tuor that Tolkien himself saw and understood flaws in the elven worldview but such things don't creep much into the books themselves.

How does this relate to humanity and the topic at hand? Elves saw themselves as being the natural instructors and examples to humanity and thus the more elven like the particular group of humans the more "good" they were. And, naturally enough, the elven-like (or elven-lite) humans thought the same thing of the elves and thus carried this tradition on down through the ages.

But, on the other hand, it is also true that humanity's interactions with the elves *did* elevate Mankind above what they could have been on their own, especially with the constant influence of Morgoth pulling upon them.

[littlemanpoet]

I can imagine a series of conversations between various folk of Middle Earth.

One elf (call him Finrod) to another (call him Daeron): "We know we're good for them."

Daeron to Finrod: "They know we're good for them."

Later, Finrod to Beleg: "You know we're good for you."

Beleg to Finrod: "You know you're good for us."

Later, Beleg to Turin: "They're good for us and you know it."

Turin to Beleg: "They're good for us and they know it."

Later, Turin to Mim: "They're good for us and they know it."

Mim to Turin: "They think they're good for you and you believe it."

Later, Mim to an Easterling: "Those Elves think they're the best thing since sliced pie."

Easterling to Mim: "Those Elves are good for nothing but trouble."

[Selador]

littlemanpoet. There's always a "Mim", isn't there?

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think there are two different things operating. The first one is that elves do seem to be more predisposed to goodness (whether that be due to something within or because they were better protected and instructed in the days of their race's infancy is a matter of debate). The second thing is the elvo-centrist paradigm of the books themselves. It must be remembered that all of Tolkien's works are written from an elven or at least elven inspired point of view.

I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that the Elves were better protected and instructed than were Men. I also think it may be true that they were by nature better disposed to be "good", although I am not certain. The Silmarillion (Of the Beginning of Days) tells us that Elves have the "greater bliss in this world", while Men "would not use their gifts in harmony". So maybe Elves just know right from wrong more naturally than Men? I don't know.

Of course (it suddenly occurs to me) the Silmarillion is ostensibly a translation of Arda's history as recorded by the Elves. Tolkien may well have been writing their bias against Men into the descriptions in the text. The Noldor, at least, proved that Elves themselves were capable of terrible evil.

But I think you are mistaken, Kuruharan, when you say that all Tolkien's works were elvo-centric. I think he was referring only to the history of the Elder Days - the Silmarillion. I am sure that he describes Lord of the Rings as anthropocentric.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

But I think you are mistaken, Kuruharan, when you say that all Tolkien's works were elvo-centric. I think he was referring only to the history of the Elder Days - the Silmarillion. I am sure that he describes Lord of the Rings as anthropocentric.

By elvo-centric I didn't necessarily mean that the story was (purportedly) written by elves from an elven perspective. I meant it in a more encompassing way to include people writing under the influence of elvish culture and mores and largely looking to elvish culture as the source of their inspiration. The Lord of the Rings qualifies on that score.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Also elvishcentric in that LOTR is sort of a bookend to
those elves returning to Middle-earth in the First Age
to fight Melkor and leaving it after the Third Age with
the definitive defeat of Morgoth's lieutenant Sauron.

[littlemanpoet]

Now I step out on a limb. The people of Haleth and Beor and the other clan whose name I don't recall, were of northern stock. The Eorlings were of northern stock. The Breelanders were of northern stock. The Beornings were of northern stock. The Men of Dale were of northern stock.

The Dunlendings, Haradrim, and Easterlings were .... not of northern stock.

It can safely be argued from the tales spun by Tolkien in regard to each of these people groups, that if you're a northerner and a human, chances are you have a disposition tending toward goodness, and contact with Elves or lack of such contact does not obtain. That is, it doesn't matter if northerners have contact with Elves or not; they'll still most likely not be evil. So this tells me that Tolkien's system has it such that northerners have some special quality that the other people groups lack. What is it, and why does Tolkien single northerners out as somehow more capable of withstanding the onslaught of evil?

Take this one step further. The Numenoreans were descended from a combination of Elves and the northern people groups. Those that settle in Umbar, the furthest south of any, descended into evil. Gondor, in the middle, has a middling history of both good and bad: they withstood Sauron but had the kinslaying and other such evils. The people of Arnor did have some groups that fell to the sway of evil in Cardolan and Rhudaur, so it could be said that these are exceptions to the rule of northerness - but so is the Witch Kingdom of Angmar an exception to the rule of evil being southern; so these can be considered the dual exception that proves the rule.

There you have it: why are southerners prone to evil and northerners likely to be good, Elves or not Elves?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Selador

I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that the Elves were better protected and instructed than were Men. I also think it may be true that they were by nature better disposed to be "good", although I am not certain. The Silmarillion (Of the Beginning of Days) tells us that Elves have the "greater bliss in this world", while Men "would not use their gifts in harmony". So maybe Elves just know right from wrong more naturally than Men? I don't know.

Well, they're meant to be more bound to the Music, and as the music comes from Eru, then this would make them intrinsically more "good".

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There you have it: why are southerners prone to evil and northerners likely to be good, Elves or not Elves?

Originally Posted by Gordis

Considering that Angband, Utumno and Carn Dum stood in the North, the theory can hardly be accepted. Dol Guldur was not much to the South either.

I think that actually here the answer is staring us in the face:

Melkor= Master of harsh climates.
Harsh Climates= Evil.

So I would presume that Morgoth had more influence through his "marred earth" in such areas with harsh climates.

I suppose though, that this idea would work better with elves, as they are more tied to the earth itself, but we never hear of the Southern and Eastern elves that may have existed so we can't know much about this.


And following on from that (forgetting that Valinor is in the West), the people in the West would naturally be more "good" because of the power of Ulmo (closer to the Sea- he also has power over other non-"poisoned" waters, but it would seem that he can keep water "good" when it is nearer to him).

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The people of Arnor did have some groups that fell to the sway of evil in Cardolan and Rhudaur, so it could be said that these are exceptions to the rule of northerness - but so is the Witch Kingdom of Angmar an exception to the rule of evil being southern; so these can be considered the dual exception that proves the rule.

Well, there is also the idea that in each side there always is a little of the other- just look at the evil that happened in Valinor. Simple Yin and Yang:



There is also the idea that there was a "Divine calling" to the West, and all those that were destined to the West answered the summons.




EDIT:

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

This whole north/south thing is really odd, because the Elves have traditionally associated the North with evil (when you go through the cardinal directions it's supposed to go West, South, East, North because North was the seat of Angband).

MAybe after the initial stronghold in the icy cold North was completed, evil had to move to the next best, which would be scorching hot (another of old Morgy's specialities)

[mark12_30]

Perhaps we should be differentiating between "Temperate northern" (England, Beowulf) and Arctic Northern (the grinding ice ).

Perhaps also we should be differentiating between real north, and, what seems like northern to them southrons (Rohirrim came 'from the north', but are the banks of Anduin really all that far north?)

[littlemanpoet]

I think there are two more aspects to "why north".

First, the Celtic and German people groups (throw in Finnish because of Tolkien's preferences) are northern and western. Therefore, in a meta-story sense, he's writing from the perspective of all the mythologies he studied by way of his linguistic/philological pursuits. Thus, the Germanic and Celtic people groups have a bit more going for them. The entire legendarium has as its subject northern Men, Elves, and Dwarves. Since it's about them and from their pov, it makes sense that Tolkien would make them more prone to virtue (as it were).

Second, it's interesting to me how Tolkien's legendarium - myth, really, compares and contrasts to the ancient mythologies, northern and otherwise, with which he was familiar. In point of fact, I don't think there are any myths that have the villainous evil deity in the north (there may be one or many, but I don't recollect them). There is, however, in many of the primary myths with which we are these days familiar - - Mayan, Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek/Roman, etc. - - an interesting correlation to the north, in that the primary deity is understood to be at the north, literally at the north pole, and is associated with the ancient sun god, be it Ra, Saturn, Quetzalchoatl, or whoever. That Tolkien has his northern power be evil is at odds to most of these, but there's one exception: Lucifer in the Hebrew "mythos", written by one Isaiah. The description of Lucifer matches that of Saturn, Ra, etc. in other cultural myths except that Lucifer is evil, like Morgoth.

I realize the second point strays a little bit from the "from Men" bit, but I'm attempting to dig up original causes at a story/myth-writing level.