Of Boromirs death - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tyler · 01-08-2003, 05:09 PM

What would have happened if Boromir didn’t die? Would the fellowship have found out since Frodo slipped off across the river? What kind of reactions would they have? I think the different members would have wanted to do different things to him. Maybe kill him, send him back to Gondor in shame, or just leave him. (You might say he was truly sorry for what he did and we shouldn’t judge him but he knew where the ring was going and he promised to protect Frodo. Who knows if he would have done it again if he had the chance? At first he did want to use it and then he attempted to take it. How do we truly know he would do it again?) This could have changed the way we look at some or the characters. We could have thought them to be too harsh or too nice. I'm thinking that Tolkien had him die defending the hobbits so we wouldn’t have to pass judgment on either the reaction of the fellowship or Boromirs actions. All we would have is that he died doing a noble deed.

Davin · 01-08-2003, 05:18 PM

Frodo and Sam would have still gone off on their own, because they left before Boromir died. Merry and Pippin may have not been taken away, but I doubt Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir could defend them from all of those Orcs..as there were a lot of them. Boromir died..the book worked out...who cares what would have happened.....because it aint gonna change.......

Gorwingel · 01-08-2003, 09:00 PM

Yeah, I have to agree, I don't think much would have changed. He would have probably been a better person because, since Sam and Frodo were gone, so the ring would not be temping him. I also think that Merry and Pippin would have still been taken by the orcs. So he probably would have joined the three hunters going to Rohan, because he probably would not have as much of an urge to go to Gondor, because one of the main reasons he wanted to go to Gondor was so that they could take the ring to fight against The armies of Mordor.

doug*platypus · 01-09-2003, 04:17 AM

Quote:

who cares what would have happened

In the immortal words of Luke Skywalker (forgive me, Downers): "I care!"

I think you raise an excellent point, Tyler. Perhaps it was a lot better for Boromir himself to have perished, rather than have to face the guilt and possible consequences. At the point in the tale where Frodo and Sam leave on their own, we are not sure if this is the wisest thing to do. Aragorn originally intends for at least two others to accompany them. In which case, he would probably not have been available to defeat the Corsairs, and Gondor may have been destroyed.

Boromir may also, as hinted at by Faramir, have become a problem for the Heir of Elendil in assuming his Kingship. As a matter of fact, it's quite convenient for Aragorn that both Denethor and Boromir perished.

Boromir's failure, and its beneficial results, are a great example of Success through Failure. Keep an eye out for my new thread, coming soon!

01-09-2003, 07:43 PM

it wouldnt have mattered because aragorn was letting frodo go.Legolas and gimli agreed with aragorn anyway

Carrûn · 01-09-2003, 08:04 PM

If he was not lying there dying it is quite possible he never would have told Aragorn of his attempt to take the Ring from Frodo. Assuming that the other events took place as they were written he most likely would have joined with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in their hunt for Merry and Pippen. Personally I think it would be interesting to see his reaction to his Father's death and Aragorn's eventual claim to Gondor's throne. I believe Frodo makes some comment later on that he would have supported it but I'm not sure if that's the case or not. After all, there is no "I would have followed you...my king" dialog in the book.

Kalimac · 01-09-2003, 11:58 PM

I agree with doug*platypus, especially about the issue of Elendil's heir returning. Also, think about Denethor; if Boromir remained alive, even if he went with the Three Walkers (now the Four Walkers) it would be impossible to keep him away from Gondor for very long. Of course, Faramir would never see the vision of the dead Boromir, and Denethor would not be affected the way he was. Instead we'd have Faramir prowling around somewhere in the underbrush with Denethor stepping on his neck as per usual, as well as a much stronger and more confident Denethor (his favorite son returned) who incidentally is still looking into the Palantir and being manipulated by Sauron. Whew. I'm not sure what happens after that. Any number of things are possible, but it's pretty safe to say that the King Returned would have a much harder time of it, as Doug stated. Denethor talks a good line about how they will alway be Stewards and never Kings, but it's hard to see him graciously making way for Aragorn either.

As for Boromir himself - well, he's decided it's best not to take the Ring after all, but he's not very diplomatic and it's hard to see him (a) managing to conceal the fact that he actually had access to Isildur's Bane from his father (b) explaining to Denethor's satisfaction his failure to bring it back. Add Faramir's actions in releasing Frodo to all this, and now Denethor has two sons who let the Ring go instead of just one.

I have to stop, I'm starting to get alarmed. Whatever the results would be, they wouldn't be pretty. Things were better as they happened in the books.

doug*platypus · 01-10-2003, 02:13 AM

Quote:

it wouldnt have mattered because aragorn was letting frodo go.

uh... I think this might be a slightly movie-influenced opinion. In the book the issue is different; Aragorn never gets a chance to 'let Frodo go', as he doesn't see Frodo again between the Lawn of Parth Galen and the Field of Cormallen. Of course it is possible that a meeting between them would have had the same consequence as in the movie, but this would also leave some room in Aragorn's heart for doubt about his decision. In the book he is relieved to have the burden of the choice removed.

Quote:

Add Faramir's actions in releasing Frodo to all this, and now Denethor has two sons who let the Ring go instead of just one.

Interesting point, O Candle! I don't think he would have been a happy camper. Maybe in the ensuing mayhem of his wrath and possible suicide Boromir would have seen the light and backed Aragorn, along with his brother. If you believe that Fate is extremely strong or powerful, then maybe Aragorn would have become King no matter what.

Incidentally, readers of this thread might also be interested in this one.

Nyneve · 05-12-2003, 03:52 PM

Hey, there is a good fan fiction story I read about Boromir called "Boromir's Return." I thought it was very well written.
It is along the same lines as this description.

05-12-2003, 09:23 PM

As others have pointed out, Frodo and Sam would have left the fellowship and Merry and Pippin would have most likely been captured. But I think the big change would be what the fellowship did after they discovered Frodo and Sam gone. I'm sure that had Borimir lived, he would have still lusted for the Ring for Gondor and would have wanted to pursue it.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: The Harpest ]

Aiwendil · 05-12-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Aragorn never gets a chance to 'let Frodo go', as he doesn't see Frodo again between the Lawn of Parth Galen and the Field of Cormallen.

Moreover, Aragorn appears quite unlikely to let Frodo go, if he had the chance to stop him. The movie version was not only contrary to the facts in the book; it was contrary to Aragorn's character.

busybee · 05-16-2003, 11:06 AM

I totally agree with doug*platypus. With Boromir alive he would have made it much more dificult for Aragorn to get the throne. Perhaps Aragorn might have given him the position of ruling Ithilien instead of Faramir ( i think thats what he told Faramir to do) and Faramir might have thus been pushed into the sidelines. Also when Frodo returns he might not be very comfortable with Boromir around since he tried to take the ring and all or maybe after Frodo runs to Mordor Boromir will be totally obsessed with the ring and would go running after Frodo in an atempt to stop him leading the ring right into Mordor.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ May 16, 2003: Message edited by: busybee ]

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-16-2003, 12:59 PM

What everybody seems to be overlooking is that Boromir repents and masters the Ring's temptation almost immediately after Frodo flees, and long before his death in defense of Merry and Pippin. Otherwise he would have gone chasing after Frodo at once, instead of returning shamefacedly to the Company. As regards the Ring he is now at least as safe as the Lady Galadriel or his brother.

We should also remember that Boromir *wants* to take Aragorn to Minas Tirith, that was in fact the original plan - that he and Aragorn would leave the Company and go to Gondor. However the loss of Gandalf changes things. Aragorn seems to feel he now owes it to Frodo and the quest to go on into Mordor.

It is far from a forgone conclusion that Boromir would have opposed Aragorn taking the crown. Frodo seems to believe he would not. Which of course would have gone over badly with Denethor. Most likely Boromir would have ended up torn between loyalty to his father and to Aragorn, an unenviable position.

05-16-2003, 03:09 PM

It would have been interesting in Rohan, wouldn't it, if Boromir, slightly dinged up, but still hale, had been there? There would have been less trouble with Eomer, and wouldn't I love to hear what Gandalf would have said to him. And Wormtongue.

01-08-2003, 05:09 PM	#1
Tyler Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 37	Of Boromirs death What would have happened if Boromir didn’t die? Would the fellowship have found out since Frodo slipped off across the river? What kind of reactions would they have? I think the different members would have wanted to do different things to him. Maybe kill him, send him back to Gondor in shame, or just leave him. (You might say he was truly sorry for what he did and we shouldn’t judge him but he knew where the ring was going and he promised to protect Frodo. Who knows if he would have done it again if he had the chance? At first he did want to use it and then he attempted to take it. How do we truly know he would do it again?) This could have changed the way we look at some or the characters. We could have thought them to be too harsh or too nice. I'm thinking that Tolkien had him die defending the hobbits so we wouldn’t have to pass judgment on either the reaction of the fellowship or Boromirs actions. All we would have is that he died doing a noble deed. __________________ Not all who wander are lost. -Tolkien

01-08-2003, 05:18 PM	#2
Davin Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 166	Frodo and Sam would have still gone off on their own, because they left before Boromir died. Merry and Pippin may have not been taken away, but I doubt Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir could defend them from all of those Orcs..as there were a lot of them. Boromir died..the book worked out...who cares what would have happened.....because it aint gonna change....... __________________ So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. »»The Telmena««

01-08-2003, 09:00 PM	#3
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Yeah, I have to agree, I don't think much would have changed. He would have probably been a better person because, since Sam and Frodo were gone, so the ring would not be temping him. I also think that Merry and Pippin would have still been taken by the orcs. So he probably would have joined the three hunters going to Rohan, because he probably would not have as much of an urge to go to Gondor, because one of the main reasons he wanted to go to Gondor was so that they could take the ring to fight against The armies of Mordor. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-09-2003, 08:04 PM	#6
Carrûn Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Behind you, counting to 3 Posts: 234	If he was not lying there dying it is quite possible he never would have told Aragorn of his attempt to take the Ring from Frodo. Assuming that the other events took place as they were written he most likely would have joined with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in their hunt for Merry and Pippen. Personally I think it would be interesting to see his reaction to his Father's death and Aragorn's eventual claim to Gondor's throne. I believe Frodo makes some comment later on that he would have supported it but I'm not sure if that's the case or not. After all, there is no "I would have followed you...my king" dialog in the book. __________________ "Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

01-09-2003, 11:58 PM	#7
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I agree with doug*platypus, especially about the issue of Elendil's heir returning. Also, think about Denethor; if Boromir remained alive, even if he went with the Three Walkers (now the Four Walkers) it would be impossible to keep him away from Gondor for very long. Of course, Faramir would never see the vision of the dead Boromir, and Denethor would not be affected the way he was. Instead we'd have Faramir prowling around somewhere in the underbrush with Denethor stepping on his neck as per usual, as well as a much stronger and more confident Denethor (his favorite son returned) who incidentally is still looking into the Palantir and being manipulated by Sauron. Whew. I'm not sure what happens after that. Any number of things are possible, but it's pretty safe to say that the King Returned would have a much harder time of it, as Doug stated. Denethor talks a good line about how they will alway be Stewards and never Kings, but it's hard to see him graciously making way for Aragorn either. As for Boromir himself - well, he's decided it's best not to take the Ring after all, but he's not very diplomatic and it's hard to see him (a) managing to conceal the fact that he actually had access to Isildur's Bane from his father (b) explaining to Denethor's satisfaction his failure to bring it back. Add Faramir's actions in releasing Frodo to all this, and now Denethor has two sons who let the Ring go instead of just one. I have to stop, I'm starting to get alarmed. Whatever the results would be, they wouldn't be pretty. Things were better as they happened in the books. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

01-09-2003, 07:43 PM	#5
mattyclug1 Guest Posts: n/a	it wouldnt have mattered because aragorn was letting frodo go.Legolas and gimli agreed with aragorn anyway

05-12-2003, 03:52 PM	#9
Nyneve Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Place Between the Twighlight and the Dawn Posts: 29	Hey, there is a good fan fiction story I read about Boromir called "Boromir's Return." I thought it was very well written. It is along the same lines as this description. __________________ Yet do thy worst, old Time: despite thy wrong, My love shall in my verse ever live young.--W.S.

05-12-2003, 09:23 PM	#10
The Harpest Guest Posts: n/a	As others have pointed out, Frodo and Sam would have left the fellowship and Merry and Pippin would have most likely been captured. But I think the big change would be what the fellowship did after they discovered Frodo and Sam gone. I'm sure that had Borimir lived, he would have still lusted for the Ring for Gondor and would have wanted to pursue it. [ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: The Harpest ]

05-16-2003, 11:06 AM	#12
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	I totally agree with dougplatypus. With Boromir alive he would have made it much more dificult for Aragorn to get the throne. Perhaps Aragorn might have given him the position of ruling Ithilien instead of Faramir ( i think* thats what he told Faramir to do) and Faramir might have thus been pushed into the sidelines. Also when Frodo returns he might not be very comfortable with Boromir around since he tried to take the ring and all or maybe after Frodo runs to Mordor Boromir will be totally obsessed with the ring and would go running after Frodo in an atempt to stop him leading the ring right into Mordor. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ May 16, 2003: Message edited by: busybee ] __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

05-16-2003, 12:59 PM	#13
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	What everybody seems to be overlooking is that Boromir repents and masters the Ring's temptation almost immediately after Frodo flees, and long before his death in defense of Merry and Pippin. Otherwise he would have gone chasing after Frodo at once, instead of returning shamefacedly to the Company. As regards the Ring he is now at least as safe as the Lady Galadriel or his brother. We should also remember that Boromir wants to take Aragorn to Minas Tirith, that was in fact the original plan - that he and Aragorn would leave the Company and go to Gondor. However the loss of Gandalf changes things. Aragorn seems to feel he now owes it to Frodo and the quest to go on into Mordor. It is far from a forgone conclusion that Boromir would have opposed Aragorn taking the crown. Frodo seems to believe he would not. Which of course would have gone over badly with Denethor. Most likely Boromir would have ended up torn between loyalty to his father and to Aragorn, an unenviable position.

05-16-2003, 03:09 PM	#14
Attalus Guest Posts: n/a	It would have been interesting in Rohan, wouldn't it, if Boromir, slightly dinged up, but still hale, had been there? There would have been less trouble with Eomer, and wouldn't I love to hear what Gandalf would have said to him. And Wormtongue.