How did Gandalf sneak into Dul Guldur? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-13-2002, 03:34 PM

How exactly did Gandalf sneak into Dol Guldur? You'd think that it would be patrolled by hundreds of orcs, both inside and outside the tower. Furthermore, how did Gandalf get all the way to the torture basement where Thrain was being kept? And how did he have enough time to talk for a few minutes with Thrain and recieve the map of Erebor? Did he hack his way through orcs?

Another question: How did Gandalf come to know that Sauron was 'the Necromancer' residing in Dol Guldur. Did he see Sauron? Did he overhear talk about Sauron?

I don't think there is any way to definitively answer these questions.

Aralaithiel · 02-13-2002, 03:48 PM

He's a member of the Istari. They are very powerful, and are capable of doing quite a bit. They were sent by the Valar to aid the men, hobbits, and elves. Read Unfinished Tales and there's a section on them.
Glad to be of help...or mass confusion! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

02-13-2002, 03:56 PM

Yeah, but Dol Guldur was one dangerous place. I mean, Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Glorfindel, and all the other powerful good guys knew of its existence for quite a long time, and yet were unable to drive out 'The Necromancer'. They simply didn't have the power to.

Though, when I think about it, sneaking into a place is a lot different then driving out Sauron...

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-14-2002, 07:35 AM

I've often wondered about Gandalf's meeting with Thrain, more particularly about the items he picks up there. Normal practice when people are imprisoned by nasty customers is for the guards to take whatever they're carrying and then pocket whatever they can get away with keeping. Thrain must be the only political prisoner ever to have been left with potentially valuable possessions without hiding them somewhere very personal. Not that I'm ruling that out; it's just that nobody in The Hobbit mentions any odd stains or smells on the map. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Finding Thrain and being told where to find the map and key I could believe; but just being given them is a bit too convenient.

On the other hand, Gandalf's being able to sneak into Dol Guldur's dungeons and wander around at will seems quite acceptable. He's a pretty sharp sort, and a bit of a disguise, some well-considered bluffing and a few deft magic tricks would probably do the job. He wasn't exactly contending with genius when it came to the orcs of Sauron's garrison.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

Inziladun · 02-14-2002, 08:13 AM

It does say Gandalf entered Dol Guldur in disguise. His great wisdom and 'luck' (if there really is such a thing} allowed him to pull it off without being caught.
As for why Thr*áin was not relieved of his map and key after capture, Gandalf surmised that Sauron only wanted the last of the Seven that Thráin kept, and once he had it he merely 'flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died'. It makes sense to me.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-14-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

As for why Thr*áin was not relieved of his map and key after capture, Gandalf surmised that Sauron only wanted the last of the Seven that Thráin kept, and once he had it he merely 'flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died'. It makes sense to me.

This is the source of my problem: Sauron only wanted the ring, so his search would be fairly cursory; but surely no-one would suggest that Orcs are averse to robbing prisoners of their belongings, or of stripping them naked to make sure they've found everything. Just look at what they did to Frodo when they captured him and their subsequent fight over the booty. Imagine what they'd be like if Sauron had already taken what he wanted.
As I said the disguise working makes perfect sense, given what we know about Orcs from the trip to Mordor in RoTK. A pair of dark glasses would fool that lot.

Inziladun · 02-15-2002, 07:13 AM

Orcs certainly were not adverse to robbing prisoners. But they seem to mainly want things of beauty or value and one would have to wonder if an old map and key would be of any interest to them. And surely there were other prisoners they could amuse themselves with besides an old dying dwarf.

obloquy · 02-15-2002, 10:15 AM

I doubt the Orcs would've wanted to mess with a Dwarf lord of Thrain's caliber, especially if they knew Sauron had already searched him. Besides this, if they had had access to him (which probably wasn't the case -- after all, why would Sauron risk opening and closing his cell for Orcs to enter and exit, much less allowing them to have a key to his cell) would they even know what to do with his map and key? In addition (again, even if the Orcs could get at him) Thrain possibly had time to hide his remaining possessions in his cell.

Also, are we even sure Dol Guldur was crawling with Orcs, as has been implied?

Aralaithiel · 02-15-2002, 08:37 PM

I would think that Dol Guldur was like any other Sauron hangout and would have plenty of orcs. Just my opinion though.

02-13-2002, 03:34 PM	#1
Mysterio Guest Posts: n/a	How did Gandalf sneak into Dul Guldur? How exactly did Gandalf sneak into Dol Guldur? You'd think that it would be patrolled by hundreds of orcs, both inside and outside the tower. Furthermore, how did Gandalf get all the way to the torture basement where Thrain was being kept? And how did he have enough time to talk for a few minutes with Thrain and recieve the map of Erebor? Did he hack his way through orcs? Another question: How did Gandalf come to know that Sauron was 'the Necromancer' residing in Dol Guldur. Did he see Sauron? Did he overhear talk about Sauron? I don't think there is any way to definitively answer these questions.

02-13-2002, 03:48 PM	#2
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	He's a member of the Istari. They are very powerful, and are capable of doing quite a bit. They were sent by the Valar to aid the men, hobbits, and elves. Read Unfinished Tales and there's a section on them. Glad to be of help...or mass confusion! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-14-2002, 07:35 AM	#4
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I've often wondered about Gandalf's meeting with Thrain, more particularly about the items he picks up there. Normal practice when people are imprisoned by nasty customers is for the guards to take whatever they're carrying and then pocket whatever they can get away with keeping. Thrain must be the only political prisoner ever to have been left with potentially valuable possessions without hiding them somewhere very personal. Not that I'm ruling that out; it's just that nobody in The Hobbit mentions any odd stains or smells on the map. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Finding Thrain and being told where to find the map and key I could believe; but just being given them is a bit too convenient. On the other hand, Gandalf's being able to sneak into Dol Guldur's dungeons and wander around at will seems quite acceptable. He's a pretty sharp sort, and a bit of a disguise, some well-considered bluffing and a few deft magic tricks would probably do the job. He wasn't exactly contending with genius when it came to the orcs of Sauron's garrison. [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-14-2002, 08:13 AM	#5
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,035	It does say Gandalf entered Dol Guldur in disguise. His great wisdom and 'luck' (if there really is such a thing} allowed him to pull it off without being caught. As for why Thr*áin was not relieved of his map and key after capture, Gandalf surmised that Sauron only wanted the last of the Seven that Thráin kept, and once he had it he merely 'flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died'. It makes sense to me. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

02-15-2002, 07:13 AM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,035	Orcs certainly were not adverse to robbing prisoners. But they seem to mainly want things of beauty or value and one would have to wonder if an old map and key would be of any interest to them. And surely there were other prisoners they could amuse themselves with besides an old dying dwarf. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

02-13-2002, 03:56 PM	#3
Mysterio Guest Posts: n/a	Yeah, but Dol Guldur was one dangerous place. I mean, Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Glorfindel, and all the other powerful good guys knew of its existence for quite a long time, and yet were unable to drive out 'The Necromancer'. They simply didn't have the power to. Though, when I think about it, sneaking into a place is a lot different then driving out Sauron...

02-15-2002, 10:15 AM	#8
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	I doubt the Orcs would've wanted to mess with a Dwarf lord of Thrain's caliber, especially if they knew Sauron had already searched him. Besides this, if they had had access to him (which probably wasn't the case -- after all, why would Sauron risk opening and closing his cell for Orcs to enter and exit, much less allowing them to have a key to his cell) would they even know what to do with his map and key? In addition (again, even if the Orcs could get at him) Thrain possibly had time to hide his remaining possessions in his cell. Also, are we even sure Dol Guldur was crawling with Orcs, as has been implied?

02-15-2002, 08:37 PM	#9
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I would think that Dol Guldur was like any other Sauron hangout and would have plenty of orcs. Just my opinion though. __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"