Awakening - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Cazoz · 10-15-2002, 04:41 AM

I've got a few queries about awakening, be it the Dwarves' or Elves'.

Would they have awoken fully grown or as babies? If the latter, the first onces wouldn't have had anyone to bring them up, feed them, teach them how to speak and so on. And maybe some of the earliest Elves would end up with a cold demeanour, with their not having parents or anything.

And if they were the among the first, would they have known where to go from Cuiviénen as they were very sensitive and perceptive, or was it just luck that they wandered along the path they took?

You could discern some pretty silly scenarios from this, such as a mental picture of baby Elves crawling west from Cuiviénen whilst they grew up. (I was very bored last night and wondering about all this.)

Does anyone know how this all worked?

lathspell · 10-15-2002, 05:17 AM

I think the first Elves and the first Dwarves awoke full-grown.
And I believe it is said in the Silmarillion (of Aule and Yavanna) that Aule instructed the dwarves in such matters as they were to know. I guess Iluvatar did the same to the Elves at Cuivienen, or that they knew already by some design of Iluvatar.

greetings,
lathspell

theWhiteLady · 10-15-2002, 05:27 AM

Greetings Cazoz!

The Sil mentions that, "By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all the things the stars of heaven."

Though I have no quotes to support it, I have always taken for granted that the Eldar awoke fully grown. The Sil also mentions that, "they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived." The Elves most likely taught themselves all that they needed to know, including their language and food. And lastly, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor and they were led by Oromë toward the Sea.

That is how I understand it for the Elves; the Dwarves were created a tad differently [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Galorme · 10-15-2002, 09:06 AM

The dwarves awake fully grown, as they were hardy before they awoke, which suggests they were at least big. They elves didn't know where to go from the mere, they stayed there until Orome led them to Valinor. I think they could well have been babies.

But the important question is Did the first men have belly buttons?

**lindil** · 10-15-2002, 12:19 PM

There is more on the Elves awakening in HoME 11, 'Quendi and Eldar' that tells of the awakening of the original 144 elves.

There is also in HoME 12 a chapter/essay entitled Of Dwarves and Men p. 301 has a more detailed and slightly divergent I think account of their awakening.Also note 24 on p.322 also adds further speculation that JRRT intended for other dwarves to placed alongside the Fathers of the Houses to awaken with or just after them, in a manner similar to the elves it would seem.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Galorme · 10-15-2002, 02:20 PM

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BELLYBUTTON!!!!!

TolkienGurl · 10-15-2002, 02:53 PM

Is it that important, Galorme? (I mean, come on, bellybuttons?) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I have always thought that the Elves awoke fully grown, like Adam and Eve did.

Love ya all [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img],
TolkienGurl

10-15-2002, 04:41 AM	#1
Cazoz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 71	Awakening I've got a few queries about awakening, be it the Dwarves' or Elves'. Would they have awoken fully grown or as babies? If the latter, the first onces wouldn't have had anyone to bring them up, feed them, teach them how to speak and so on. And maybe some of the earliest Elves would end up with a cold demeanour, with their not having parents or anything. And if they were the among the first, would they have known where to go from Cuiviénen as they were very sensitive and perceptive, or was it just luck that they wandered along the path they took? You could discern some pretty silly scenarios from this, such as a mental picture of baby Elves crawling west from Cuiviénen whilst they grew up. (I was very bored last night and wondering about all this.) Does anyone know how this all worked?

10-15-2002, 05:17 AM	#2
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I think the first Elves and the first Dwarves awoke full-grown. And I believe it is said in the Silmarillion (of Aule and Yavanna) that Aule instructed the dwarves in such matters as they were to know. I guess Iluvatar did the same to the Elves at Cuivienen, or that they knew already by some design of Iluvatar. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-15-2002, 09:06 AM	#4
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	The dwarves awake fully grown, as they were hardy before they awoke, which suggests they were at least big. They elves didn't know where to go from the mere, they stayed there until Orome led them to Valinor. I think they could well have been babies. But the important question is Did the first men have belly buttons? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-15-2002, 12:19 PM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	There is more on the Elves awakening in HoME 11, 'Quendi and Eldar' that tells of the awakening of the original 144 elves. There is also in HoME 12 a chapter/essay entitled Of Dwarves and Men p. 301 has a more detailed and slightly divergent I think account of their awakening.Also note 24 on p.322 also adds further speculation that JRRT intended for other dwarves to placed alongside the Fathers of the Houses to awaken with or just after them, in a manner similar to the elves it would seem. [ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-15-2002, 02:20 PM	#6
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BELLYBUTTON!!!!! __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-15-2002, 05:27 AM	#3
theWhiteLady Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 116	Greetings Cazoz! The Sil mentions that, "By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all the things the stars of heaven." Though I have no quotes to support it, I have always taken for granted that the Eldar awoke fully grown. The Sil also mentions that, "they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived." The Elves most likely taught themselves all that they needed to know, including their language and food. And lastly, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor and they were led by Oromë toward the Sea. That is how I understand it for the Elves; the Dwarves were created a tad differently [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-15-2002, 02:53 PM	#7
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	Is it that important, Galorme? (I mean, come on, bellybuttons?) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I have always thought that the Elves awoke fully grown, like Adam and Eve did. Love ya all [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img], TolkienGurl __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal