Elf-mortal love-Think about how sad that would really be - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Luinëcolloien · 10-11-2002, 03:50 PM

Forgive me if this is wrong in this opic-room, but, once again, I wanted some veteran's take on this.
Anywhoo,
Has anyone ever though about how much it would really stink to be an Elf and fall in love with a mortal? I mean, either way, it's a lose-lose situation, because if,
1.)- You choose to just forget about it, and you're sad the rest of your life becuase your just...forgot about your true love.
or, 2.)-You choose to give up your immortality, (if you have that ability) and you die early, but still outlive your lover.
*sigh*
Just wanted your opinion on it. Thank for reading!

Elenna · 10-11-2002, 04:07 PM

I agree with you. That's why I think it didn't happen very often in Middle Earth. In the case of Aragorn and Arwen, for example, she regretted her decision at the last minute, when Aragorn was dying.

I don't think any of us young'uns (in comparison to the elves) can comprehend what it would be like to give up life for love. Especially life in the Undying Lands.

mark12_30 · 10-11-2002, 04:08 PM

Hi Luinëcolloien,

I gave it enough thought to write a story on it. I came around from a different direction, where the young, displaced elf didn't know she was immortal until after she had fallen in love. The consequences unravel later.
If you're interested in it, you can find it here.
I think you could approach it from a wild number of directions, and it's certainly intriguing. You can also look up "The Lonely Star RPG" here at the downs, which has a man/elf marriage with some soul-searching involved.

--Helen

**lindil** · 10-11-2002, 04:12 PM

btw I have read HElen's story and it is the best peice o' Fan fiction [JJRT-wise] I have ever read so do not delay or miss it!

Nar · 10-11-2002, 06:54 PM

Hear hear Lindil, Helen's story is excellent! And it needs a sequel! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Knight of Gondor · 10-11-2002, 08:02 PM

I'd often thought it would be rather depressing to be deprived of "The Gift of Ill
úvatar to Men", death. It would be strange to live on and on like that. But to fall in love? Too bad for Arwen. I hear they have a depressing flash-forward scene about that in TTT. But that's just what I heard.

I'll have to check that story out. I also thought up an idea for a story. What if an Orc was deserted by a band of other Orcs while it was still young? It scrounged for food, and secretly listened to a gathering of Elves nearby, and thought about how wrong its kinsmen were. And he would join the ranks of Good, and infiltrate Mordor, and gradually, as he helped the Good side, he would become more and more in looks as an Elf. Good? Bad? I've even got a title: Leithian which means "Release From Bondage". I got the title from The Silmarillion, the prose account of Beren and Lúthien.

Guildo · 10-11-2002, 08:23 PM

Im glad you broaght this up, this can give us insight to the "GIFT" of Man, some people cant quite figure out what Mans gift is Perhaps it is to die In love. i mean even if your Wife died many years before you when you die you are still in love with her. unlike the elves who have an eternity to forget about that love.

Kuruharan · 10-11-2002, 08:33 PM

Quote:

unlike the elves who have an eternity to forget about that love.

Or to remember, whichever the case may be.

Diamond18 · 10-12-2002, 02:50 PM

mark12_30 (or Helen). I thought your story was cool. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] It kept me up till 4 in the morning reading it!

And Knight of Gondor, your idea sounds intriuging and original, but the only way to decide if it will work is to start writing it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think that being an immortal among mortals would be bad enough, but to get personnally attached to one, be it romantically or just close friendship, would be torment. The fact that death really does sunder them forever (no, "see you in heaven" because the Elves don't go to heaven, they just recycle...or something [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] ) is what makes it terrible.

It's nice that Luthien and Arwen were allowed to die, but in Arwen's case I thought that she let herself despair too much after Aragorn's death. She still had her son and daughters...if I were one of them I'd feel awful that my mother didn't love me enough to stick around, but left while I was still trying to get over my dad's death.

Knight of Gondor · 10-12-2002, 07:15 PM

I think the "gift" of men was indeed, death. "It is not permitted for the Valar to deny death, which is the gift of Eru to Men" or something like that is what it says in The Silmarillion regarding Beren and Lúthien.

But Diamond18, what do you mean Elves were not "see you in Heaven"? I haven't studied up on the order of things after Death, but I don't think Tolkien would put something so "reencarnation"-esque into LotR. Whenever Tolkien mentioned death in Middle-Earth, he always used expressions like "Until the world is renewed" or "It is said...this-and-such". I think (and remember, I haven't studied it) that the World was remade, and the Valar, and the First-Born and the Second-Born and the Dwarves and everybody lived together in harmony afterwards. (Or at least, the good ones)

*Varda* · 10-12-2002, 07:51 PM

Is it really that sad? It all comes down to the fact that they loved each other, and were prepared to give up their immortality for that person.

And I wouldn't say Arwen so much regretted her decision. Aragorn told her she could go into the West if she wanted, but she didn't. She couldn't, I don't think, but I don't think she would have done anyway. Her heart was pretty much broken.

Anyway, if the whole affair was so tragic, than why were there 3 elf-mortal pairings? Ok, fair enough, Tuor got immortality (I think) but even so.....

*realises she's not making that much sense*

In my defence, it's 2:45am.

Varda

Kuruharan · 10-12-2002, 08:37 PM

Quote:

what do you mean Elves were not "see you in Heaven"? I haven't studied up on the order of things after Death, but I don't think Tolkien would put something so "reencarnation"-esque into LotR.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but Elves usually (with just one or two exceptions) reincarnate after they were killed. It was their nature. They did not "die" in the strictest sense. Death was forever leaving the "Circles of the World" for parts unknown. That was the Gift of Men. Elves did not leave the world, except in the cases of Luthien and Arwen. After a certain period of time in Mandos the Elves would be reincarnated because it was their nature to live in Arda and only Eru could change that fate.

If Arwen had decided to retain immortality, then she most certainly would never see Aragorn again because his soul had gone beyond the world, never to return. So, she decided to die with him and pass out of the world because that way there was at least a chance that she might see him again. No guarantee though. We don't know what they did "beyond the Circles of the World." It is entirely possible that the spirits of Men (and two Elves) never had anything to do with each other.

After The End, the theory is that everyone is brought back into the world and it is remade and everyone lives in harmony, but that is just a theory, we don't really know.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Diamond18 · 10-12-2002, 09:15 PM

Knight of Gondor, Kuruharan pretty much answered your question for me. I haven't studied it that much either, but from what Tolkien said it seemed to me that only Men got to join Eru Iluvatar beyond Arda. I don't know exactly what happens to Elves who are killed...I wasn't inclined to think reincarnation, but I guess I wouldn't rule that out since I don't know Tolkien's mind.

My concept of Elvish death was that their spirits dwelled in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor until the end. What happens then...I don't recall Tolkien ever saying (in the works I've read, which admittedly doesn't include HoME).

I just thought that was the whole point of Luthien and Arwen becoming mortal, because there was no other way to see their husbands after death, even if they were killed as an Elf.

the mortal elf · 10-15-2002, 07:14 PM

I'm not going to really say anything about how sad it was because 1: I might start crying [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and 2: I don't think that people who have lived for less than 2000 years can really understand it. Anyway, Knight of Gondor, that sound like a great story and you should start on it immediately if you haven't already! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lush · 10-15-2002, 08:38 PM

Quote:

You choose to just forget about it, and you're sad the rest of your life becuase your just...forgot about your true love.

Oh darling, you can forget anything if you put your mind to it, and who knows? Maybe it's for the best. The Elves had miruvor, remember? I wonder if it has the same effects as vodka does...

Regardless, I am a bit surprised that no one has brought up the issue of Finrod and what happened there. He did have a mortal woman who loved him, did he not?

Knight of Gondor · 10-15-2002, 08:48 PM

It wasn't very nice of Tolkien to go off and die, leaving us in the dark about this matter. Where's Christopher Tolkien anyway?

Nieninque · 10-16-2002, 03:11 PM

I think it would be really sad and all, but there's really no choice: how could you live with yourself knowing that your selfishness caused your true love's heart to break, as well as your own... so, if you're an elf, you're going to die of a broken heart anyway... so you might as well die with your true love.

Diamond18 · 10-16-2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Where's Christopher Tolkien anyway?

I'm told he's in France. Here's a link to more info on the subject: Christopher Tolkien

10-11-2002, 03:50 PM	#1
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	Elf-mortal love-Think about how sad that would really be Forgive me if this is wrong in this opic-room, but, once again, I wanted some veteran's take on this. Anywhoo, Has anyone ever though about how much it would really stink to be an Elf and fall in love with a mortal? I mean, either way, it's a lose-lose situation, because if, 1.)- You choose to just forget about it, and you're sad the rest of your life becuase your just...forgot about your true love. or, 2.)-You choose to give up your immortality, (if you have that ability) and you die early, but still outlive your lover. sigh Just wanted your opinion on it. Thank for reading! __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-11-2002, 04:07 PM	#2
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I agree with you. That's why I think it didn't happen very often in Middle Earth. In the case of Aragorn and Arwen, for example, she regretted her decision at the last minute, when Aragorn was dying. I don't think any of us young'uns (in comparison to the elves) can comprehend what it would be like to give up life for love. Especially life in the Undying Lands. __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-11-2002, 04:08 PM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Hi Luinëcolloien, I gave it enough thought to write a story on it. I came around from a different direction, where the young, displaced elf didn't know she was immortal until after she had fallen in love. The consequences unravel later. If you're interested in it, you can find it here. I think you could approach it from a wild number of directions, and it's certainly intriguing. You can also look up "The Lonely Star RPG" here at the downs, which has a man/elf marriage with some soul-searching involved. --Helen __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-11-2002, 04:12 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	btw I have read HElen's story and it is the best peice o' Fan fiction [JJRT-wise] I have ever read so do not delay or miss it! __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-11-2002, 08:02 PM	#6
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	I'd often thought it would be rather depressing to be deprived of "The Gift of Ill úvatar to Men", death. It would be strange to live on and on like that. But to fall in love? Too bad for Arwen. I hear they have a depressing flash-forward scene about that in TTT. But that's just what I heard. I'll have to check that story out. I also thought up an idea for a story. What if an Orc was deserted by a band of other Orcs while it was still young? It scrounged for food, and secretly listened to a gathering of Elves nearby, and thought about how wrong its kinsmen were. And he would join the ranks of Good, and infiltrate Mordor, and gradually, as he helped the Good side, he would become more and more in looks as an Elf. Good? Bad? I've even got a title: Leithian which means "Release From Bondage". I got the title from The Silmarillion, the prose account of Beren and Lúthien. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

10-11-2002, 06:54 PM	#5
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Hear hear Lindil, Helen's story is excellent! And it needs a sequel! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-11-2002, 08:23 PM	#7
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Im glad you broaght this up, this can give us insight to the "GIFT" of Man, some people cant quite figure out what Mans gift is Perhaps it is to die In love. i mean even if your Wife died many years before you when you die you are still in love with her. unlike the elves who have an eternity to forget about that love. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

10-12-2002, 02:50 PM	#9
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	mark12_30 (or Helen). I thought your story was cool. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] It kept me up till 4 in the morning reading it! And Knight of Gondor, your idea sounds intriuging and original, but the only way to decide if it will work is to start writing it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I think that being an immortal among mortals would be bad enough, but to get personnally attached to one, be it romantically or just close friendship, would be torment. The fact that death really does sunder them forever (no, "see you in heaven" because the Elves don't go to heaven, they just recycle...or something [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] ) is what makes it terrible. It's nice that Luthien and Arwen were allowed to die, but in Arwen's case I thought that she let herself despair too much after Aragorn's death. She still had her son and daughters...if I were one of them I'd feel awful that my mother didn't love me enough to stick around, but left while I was still trying to get over my dad's death. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-12-2002, 07:15 PM	#10
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	I think the "gift" of men was indeed, death. "It is not permitted for the Valar to deny death, which is the gift of Eru to Men" or something like that is what it says in The Silmarillion regarding Beren and Lúthien. But Diamond18, what do you mean Elves were not "see you in Heaven"? I haven't studied up on the order of things after Death, but I don't think Tolkien would put something so "reencarnation"-esque into LotR. Whenever Tolkien mentioned death in Middle-Earth, he always used expressions like "Until the world is renewed" or "It is said...this-and-such". I think (and remember, I haven't studied it) that the World was remade, and the Valar, and the First-Born and the Second-Born and the Dwarves and everybody lived together in harmony afterwards. (Or at least, the good ones) __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

10-12-2002, 07:51 PM	#11
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	Is it really that sad? It all comes down to the fact that they loved each other, and were prepared to give up their immortality for that person. And I wouldn't say Arwen so much regretted her decision. Aragorn told her she could go into the West if she wanted, but she didn't. She couldn't, I don't think, but I don't think she would have done anyway. Her heart was pretty much broken. Anyway, if the whole affair was so tragic, than why were there 3 elf-mortal pairings? Ok, fair enough, Tuor got immortality (I think) but even so..... realises she's not making that much sense In my defence, it's 2:45am. Varda __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

10-12-2002, 09:15 PM	#13
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Knight of Gondor, Kuruharan pretty much answered your question for me. I haven't studied it that much either, but from what Tolkien said it seemed to me that only Men got to join Eru Iluvatar beyond Arda. I don't know exactly what happens to Elves who are killed...I wasn't inclined to think reincarnation, but I guess I wouldn't rule that out since I don't know Tolkien's mind. My concept of Elvish death was that their spirits dwelled in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor until the end. What happens then...I don't recall Tolkien ever saying (in the works I've read, which admittedly doesn't include HoME). I just thought that was the whole point of Luthien and Arwen becoming mortal, because there was no other way to see their husbands after death, even if they were killed as an Elf. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-15-2002, 07:14 PM	#14
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	I'm not going to really say anything about how sad it was because 1: I might start crying [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and 2: I don't think that people who have lived for less than 2000 years can really understand it. Anyway, Knight of Gondor, that sound like a great story and you should start on it immediately if you haven't already! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

10-15-2002, 08:48 PM	#16
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	It wasn't very nice of Tolkien to go off and die, leaving us in the dark about this matter. Where's Christopher Tolkien anyway? __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

10-16-2002, 03:11 PM	#17
Nieninque Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: East Bight Posts: 67	I think it would be really sad and all, but there's really no choice: how could you live with yourself knowing that your selfishness caused your true love's heart to break, as well as your own... so, if you're an elf, you're going to die of a broken heart anyway... so you might as well die with your true love. __________________ ----- Legolas: A red sun rises in the East. Blood has been spilt this night. Aragorn: Goddamn elf's talking to himself again! I'm surrounded by weirdos...