The Great Orc Debate

[Iris Alantiel]

Hey everyone, I need your help in settling an ongoing debate between my roommate, one of her friends, and myself.

One day, in a desperate effort to escape from studying, the three of us got into a conversation about The Lord of the Rings. My roommate insisted that it was wrong to be killing all those orcs who attacked Helm's Deep; instead, our heroes ought to have made them productive members of society by teaching them useful skills like knitting. Her friend, however, believes that the orcs cannot be made productive, and therefore our heroes had to kill them to avoid being killed. My (ex) boyfriend sides with my roommate; I agree with her friend. Where do you fall in the debate? Can orcs be taught to knit? Or do we necessarily have to slaughter them? Or should we all just get back to studying now and seek help in the morning . . . ?

[Catherine]

That would be a very funny (unrealistic) sight....orcs kniting hahaha right! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

And the orc at helms deep were made to kill men and thats all they would do so you would have to kill them or be killed.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:29 PM December 08, 2003: Message edited by: Catherine ]

[Morai]

Hm...
Random ork in therapy: "I don't mean to kill men!"
Couseler: "Don't worry! It's not your fault, you see it all started in your childhood...."

[Tar-Alcarin]

Excerpt(sp?) from Finding Nemo

We are Uruk-Hai, Not mindless killing machines. Men our friend, not food.

hee-hee-hee
ho-ho-ho
ha-ha-ha
Btw the person who plays the Train Man in Revolutions is the same person who plays Bruce the Shark in Finding Nemo. Ironically he also plays the Mouth of Sauron.

[Everdawn]

Kill! Slay them all!

My reason for this is becuase, they are ugly, and i like pretty things, like glitter and stars and ponies and elves...

[Dûrbwúrz]

nah orcs can't get the hang of knitting, their fingers are too stubby for the wool and they can't shake the feeling that they ought to be stabbing the neddles into something

[willkill4food]

Actually the Orcs can be taught to knit, and they were. Not all of the Uruk-Hai were killed at in Helm's Deep, a good number of them fled into the Hurons, and the Hurons took the Orcs back into Fangorn forest and put them to work making sweaters for the Ents in a secret factory deep in the forest at the feet of the Misty Mountains...

-willkill

[doug*platypus]

Orcs CANNOT KNIT! Do not be so ridiculous!

However, when blended they can make an excellent ingredient in fruit smoothies. Smoothies are often lacking in protein and fibre, and blending an Orc in along with fresh fruit can give you the extra energy you need when you're "on the go".

Personally I feel that this would have been a much more humane way to help the Orcs achieve a worthwhile life goal than teaching them to knit! Your friend's cruelty knows no bounds...

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

The thoughts of an orc about to be slain by Gimli:

I am an Orc! Please do not kill me! All i want is to follow my masters commands, which are to KILL, KILL, KILL!!!!!!!!

Thus, orcs are not to be trusted, because they want to follow commands, which is OBVIOUSLY evil.

[Gamja]

well, with a little thing called gene splicing ( [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]) one can fix anything! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

otherwise, brainwashing or using medicine to reduce orcish agressivness could work. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Kill them, of course. They can't knit, and are therefore detrimental to society (what does that say about me? I can't knit, either
!)

[Dancing_Hobbit]

But to say that orcs cannot be taught to stop killing and start knitting is saying that there is no hope of changing them! You are saying that some creatures are doomed to death and hatred and a miserable form of existence simply because they were born a particular species! Have we then no free will? Are our personalities determined and judged by our appearances? Are we all automatons following the dictates of stereotypes? Is there no hope for us at all? Alas alack!

Ok, now that's out of my system I can say that this has been bothering me for a long time and I still haven't been able to come up with a clear position on it. My initial reaction is no, they can't be changed, but then you get the above until I remember that there's no evidence of it being possible, and you would think there would be. I short, I'm running in circles (or spheres, depending on my mood). [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Sirithheruwen]

Are you kidding Everdawn? Uruk-hai are SO FINE! In the immortal words of Cambells:

Mmmmmmmmhhh Mmmmmmmmmmhhh Good!

I don't think they should be necessarily taught to knit, but maybe just sew. You know, so that they can sew elastic onto their ballet shoes.

Oh, and yes, I HAVE heard of Orc smoothies, but havn't tried them myself...*scribbles something onto "To-Do" list*

[dragoneyes]

Well, you could try to teach them something useful to society (I wouldn't say knitting, perhaps road-sweeping) but imagine how many of their teachers they'd get through before they realised that they weren't supposed to kill anymore.

[Kransha]

I think I can defend our orcy friends with the following excerpt from one of the many Tolkein Letters obviously doctored by me...

"Based on some of the more unsubstanciated interpretatios of the etymology of yrch, I would very much like to clear this matter up before it spirals out of control and folk begin the distribution of totally unauthorized use of the orkish dialects. You see, the origin of the word orc in Arda's many languages is less complicated than it appears. All races have a generalization for the race in their own tongue but none of these have any relation. In truth, since the Black Speech is similarly a backwards dialect, the word orc is, in all obviousness, a backwards name. Thus, it can be told that the name orc in fact means something to the defect of cro which is merely cockney uruk slang for crochet. It is told further that these crochets were named thus because of their original use by Melkor, which was knitting via crochet and the dreaded 'needles of Angband.' Over time, Morgoth the Enemy most certainly found more belligerent uses for a species to hostile to remain knitters for eternity. Morgoth now had no need of fine clothing and tapestrie-esque curtains and draperies for the pits of Utumno, so he trained the cros in the way of war until they became the hostile, backwards, society with theur own brutal dialect that we now know. From thence on, they were known as orcs or yrch and forgot all the skills of knitting. Doubtless they could re-learn this fine ability if properly taught, perhaps by elven maidens."

Letters of Tolkein, Forgotten #223, 1953 (NOT!)

And there you have it. Undeniable proof that orcs know how to, and could again, knit with the utmost precision.

[Morai]

Now here's another "branch" of the debate.
When orks or "cros" are at knitting parties, what do they have for refreshments? Obviously they'll most likely drink Ork draught, otherwise known as Ny Quil cough medicine. But what will they eat? Other orks perhaps? Mabye an unfortunate person that walks in the room?

[Bekah]

That letter is very different from its original, I'll bet.

The orcs were originally men and elves tortured beyond endurance. I think they were then totally under the will of Morgoth (and afterwards Sauron), and thus unable to do anything but follow his orders. Which, I'll wager, had nothing to do with knitting.

After Sauron's demise? The orcs would have been far too used to cruelty to learn to be anything remotely like civilised.

That's my opinion, anyway...

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

P.S.

I always thought it was Morgoth....

Yes, you're right. I'm just a little tired. But when Sauron became Dark Lord, they were under his will.

[Miriel Undomiel]

The orcs were originally men and elves tortured beyond endurance. I think they were then totally under the will of Sauron,

I always thought it was Morgoth....

And maybe he 'made' them because it was could in Angband and he needed new clothes...

I think we could've made them realise that nice people (almost) always wins, and therefor live longer.

[Ashton]

Ok, Imagine an orc going to a little knitting school, getting annoyed with it all and impaling the whole class on knitting needles.... Then Think about that with a whole bunch of orcs on one class.........Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I think that they might as well give them all butcher knifes and set them loose in the middle of New York City. You would probably get the same results.

So, in otherwords No, I don't think so. They probably would destoy everything they create. Try hard labor. That is what they are suited for.

On an ending note, try imagining an orc knitting paty. All the lady orcs sitting on couches knitting doilies, sipping from tea cups, with their pinkies sticking up in the air.

[Bekah]

Bad image. Very bad mental image...

Manual labour would be best....but what kind of manual labour?

~ Elentari II

[Morai]

I can see the orks teaching hunting classes. Just as long as they don't eat their students because of their lack of hunting skills.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

You guys have totally blown this out of proportion. Even if orcs could knit, their knittings would be black and knobbly anyway.

*hmmm*

But where did Sauron get all of those knobbly orc-rags, anyway? If they weren't knitted, then how were they made? Leftovers from elvish prisoners, maybe?
Elf: You can't do anything to me! My father's the king of Mirkwood! [tosses hair]
Orc: Dat's wat you tink! [Grabs beautiful elven-clothes, dunks into foul orc-pit]
Elf: [wails] NOOOO!

[skadork]

kill them! knit them to death!

kill them with knitting needles!!!

[warrenerd]

i think they could've found a way to put them to use, but, knowing those filthy orcs, they would probably screw it all up. no, it would be too dangerous to use the orcs, unless there was some way fangorn could come and get them. he'd make sure they wouldn't step out of line...

[Morai]

I guess if we really wanted to torture them we could make them learn how to garden. Imagine orks running around in overalls instead of armor and watering cans instead of weapons. Though that idea might be a bit risky if you ask me.

[Kransha]

To support my point, here is another excerpt from that letter which I doctored.

To reprise the point of my recent dispatch, I have come to conclusion that all of my wry knitting metaphors in these volumes have been wasted. Is it not obvious that both orcs and their kin are born to knit? Let me explain, in the fervent hope that society may grasp the fact. Orcs may not knit openly in my work, but there is an obvious subconscious presence within them, showing how much they and the Dark Lord himself are dedicated to that pursuit. Note, colleagues, the original transcripts. First, may I bookmark Mordor architecture to drive this idea home. Marannon, the Black Gate itself, is a herald of knitting. Not only are the spires reminiscent of great ebony thimbles, but the watchtowers guarding Cirith Gorgor, the Towers of Teeth, were originally intended to be The Towers of Needles. Now look at the Nazgul, each baring a ferocious Morgul Needle. One could say that I had originally been taking hints from older faerie works of aged days. I used the ever-present needle pricking metaphor for my Ringwraiths. In the first transcript, the Witch-King of Angmar himself was to merely prick the finger of Frodo (the finger that bore the One Ring upon it) and wound him so dearly. I hope that some of these presentations can impress upon you the importance of knitting to the dark powers of Arda. In my next letter, I will make clearer the dark-kintting origins with Morgoth the Enemy, and knitting references in the Silmarillion.

Letters of Tolkein, Forgotten #224, 1953 (NOT! NOPE! NOTTA!)

Hope that clears things up. Let me see if I can *find* that other letter.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Im sorry, I think this is one of the silliest topics ever posted. Kill them aaaallllllllll. (this may be unwise to call anything silly, as I have typed many stupid things ...)

We should teach them how to sing that will make them pay, having to listen to each other. We might be able to convince an orangatang to do it.

[Nimrothiel]

Of course orcs can be taught how to knit; some of you have made the point that they were once elves. Elves have graceful fingers and would doubtless know how to knit, but for the orcs this would be but a distant memory; awakened only in the presence of wool and knitting needles. However, their fingers have grown too thick and lost their nimbleness. In seeing their distress, Sauron taught them how to put their new muscular bodies to use, and they became efficient killing machines. If they could but shrink in mass they would once again be able to knit and leave the peoples of Middle-Earth in peace.

Note: I hope that no-one has any objections to my using the knitting idea in a parody which I am working on loosely based off of "Bored of the Rings;" it's called "Spoof of the Rings."

[skadork]

of teaching them to knit failed, you could teach them how to crochet. and from my expiriences & what i've heard others say, that's easier to do anyway.

although, i'm stilll in favor of killing.

violence is the answer!

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Just don't teach them how to garden, p-p-p-please! Poor Sam would go crazy.
"I'm not standin' for no foul-smelling orcs in my garden, Mr Frodo, good-intentions or no!" *mutters*

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

"Orc-gear's no good," said Sam waving his arms. "I wish I'd got an orc's hide!"

*Imagine picking up a sweater with the label: 'Made in Mordor'*

"Three Socks for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their closets of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to sweat,
One for the Dark Lord on his black foot.
In the land of Mordor where the laundry lie.
One Sock to rule them all, One sock to find them,
One Sock to bring them all and in the confusion bind them.
In the Land of Mordor where the laundry lie."

He paused, and then said slowly in a deep voice: "This is the Master Sock, the One Sock to rule them all. This is the One Sock that he lost many ages ago, to the great deprivation of his mind. He greatly desires it - but he must NOT get it."

[Morai]

In the Land of Mordor where the laundry lie."

I love that poem, I got to put that one next to my washer and dryer.

Imagine picking up a sweater with the label: 'Made in Mordor'*

Heh, that would be interesting. How 'bout the orks having their own clothing company?

Abercrombie and Ork
Old Sharky
ORK (instead of "GAP")

Though I doubt their brand would sell very well in places like Mirkwood, Rivendell, and Lorien.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

So they manufacture jeans and branded sports shoes in Mordor and Isengard?

I love that poem, I got to put that one next to my washer and dryer.

You are absolutely welcome to do so.