Creature lifespans

[mordor136]

Hey after I posted on a different topic i started to think (not something i do often)
about the lifespans of Morgoths creatures. In my post on that other topic I stated that maybe Morgoth couldnt figure out how to make them reproduce so he made them live such a long time. I probobly used different words but thats close enough.

[Galorme]

The dragons in The Fall of Gondolin couldn't stay away from Morgoth for too long otherwise they ran out of energy. The Olog-Hai stopped functioning when Sauron stopped looking at them. I would guess most of the none-maia creatures would be like this, they could live as long as the Dark Powers powered them up for, if they stopped powering them they would die. There are some exceptions, what about the Nazgul's Bird things? They lived for thousands of years. And the Kraken lived for about that too. I think Orcs would suffer the same fate of Elves- there bodies would fade away until they were nothing but a mean spirit.

[Galorme]

Nice Location btw

[Salocin]

Just a friendly little correction

The Olog-Hai stopped functioning when Sauron stopped looking at them

They functioned just fine with out Sauron. It was only in the presence of sunlight that they needed his will to sustain them.

Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.

LOTR Apendix F

I think Orcs would suffer the same fate of Elves- there bodies would fade away until they were nothing but a mean spirit.

I don't think this was the case. I know the first orcs were torchered elves who had been corupted but they seem to have lost their virtue. I doubt they were immortal or immune to desease. They could obviously still bread and did so much more quickly than did elves and even men, again suggesting a short life span, though Blog fought in the battle of the Five Armies some 142 years after the death of his father Azog so they must have significantly long life, unless they where of a special, long-lived, "ruler" breed.

[-Imrahil-]

Orcs weren't immortal I think. They lost that, as Salocin said, when they were corrupted.

[Galorme]

Sorry i hate to point out the obvious, but surely if his will stopped them from turning to stone, the removal of his will would make them turn to stone, not loose their minds? hmm I did just re-read that quote tho, and it does seem i was wrong. Its a bit odd nonetheless.

Imrahil, the body may not be totally immortal, but neither are the bodies of elves, except in Valinor where they have the influence of the Valar. Their Fea are, however. And I dont know if you can corrupt a Fea, I think you can only corrupt the Hror (Hror? Hroa?)

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Salocin]

They were like all trolls, they turned to stone if exposed to sunlight. The only difference was that if Sauron's will was on them they didn't.

I dont know if you can corrupt a Fea

Well you certainly don't hear of the Fea of the corrupted elves going to the Hall of Mandos to be with the other elves.

the body may not be totally immortal, but neither are the bodies of elves

They can only die by grief or slaying which, while it is not true immortality, it is certainly more than what the orcs have.

[Galorme]

They also waste away over time. This is due to the misalignment of Substance and Spirit in Arda Marred. Eventually their bodies just fail and the only the spirit is left.

Tolkein did comment once that if Orcs were elves then their Fea would go to Mandos (HoME X, Myths Transformed)

The Trolls: When Sauron was destroyed and stopped powering them they stopped fighting and lost all sense, wondering around aimlessly. They did not turn to stone.

[ColletteTook]

I am curious, does it say anywhere in Arda or the Lost Tales just how the Trolls came about? Do any of you know?

[zacattack]

I think that the Trolls were created by Morgoth in the First AGe just as he created Dragons,Orcs,Balrogs etc

[Reginald Hill]

I think that the trolls were made by Sauron in order to combat the Ents. Treebeard says something about how Sauron tried making something as powerful as the Ents when he made trols but the Ents were still stronger.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog....

There were obviously trolls in the First Age, so Sauron did not make them. He did, however, breed the Olog-hai.

[Gralin Silverspear]

Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls...

-Treebeard

This seams to say that Orcs were just copies of Elves, but in the Silmarillion it says they were tortured Elves, which one is correct?

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar;

The word mockery is used both times, but the Trolls weren't tortured Ents were they? I'm confused. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Where did trolls come from, in the Silmarillion it says:

and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise.

so he couldn't have made Trolls, unless they used to be something. (Maybe this all is obvious, I'm somewhat of a newbie.)

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gralin Silverspear ]

[Salocin]

And if Melkor could not make life, how did he make the dragons? Were they fallen Maia to which he gave phisical form similar to the Balrogs. I have never read anything to indicate this but I don't know of any other way he could have "made" them.

[lindil]

Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog....

well I suggest all whom are interested read the 2 articles [ by the Barrow Wight and Mr. Underhill] in the Articles section that debates the entire Olog-hai Troll question.
It seems CRT actually is responsible for the Troll reference in The Silmarillion, as it does not appear in the same passages he repoduces from his father in HoME and UT.

As for the ents saying trolls were mockery of Ents this is the Ents POV [ as is everything Treebeard says, and JRRT in HoME X explains that Treebeards lore ancient though it is is not necesarrily that of the Wise].

As for the origin of Orcs and Dragons and other baddies there is an exhaustive thread in the Silm Forum here http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=8&t=000025

note: the word fear is pl. for fea=spirit

enjoy!

[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]