snowwhite and the 7 dwarves ? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

gayare'dion · 09-11-2002, 05:01 PM

ok this seems like something that would go in middle earth mayhem, but it could get turned into something big. ok i was thinking in the shower, and i was thinking about the dwarven rings, and somehow i thought about the 7 dwarves from snowwhite. is theyre any relation, any symbolism ? any thing at all ? has this thought ever crossed anyones mind?

i dont know it may seem stupid, but i thought it a bit ironic

InklingElf · 09-11-2002, 05:04 PM

...hmm yes I see your point. I bet Tolkien liked the idea of seven dwarves-so he put it in his writing...other than that well...

Eol · 09-11-2002, 08:56 PM

It could be, maybe, since the movie came out early enough. But I have strong doubts there is any relation. You might try reading through Tolkien's letters and find the section about the creation of the dwarves and elves and what he wanted to accomplish with them and how the dwarves were different from the common idea.

DarkRose · 09-11-2002, 09:00 PM

Speaking of this topic..

I believe my dad told me that Tolkien was very furious at Walt Disney for making Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I heard that Tolkien accused Disney of stealing his idea, and thus held a nasty dislike for ole' Disney.

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Bruce MacCulloch · 09-11-2002, 09:05 PM

Um, no.
Tolkien, being a well-read man, would have had the knowledge to realize that the story of Snow White was not invented by Disney. Read up on your old German fairy tales, look in Grimm's Fairy Tales or a comparable source.
The story has been documented to the eighteenth century, and is probably a bit older. Tolkien would most certainly have been familiar with the tale, and it certainly is a good chance that the idea of the seven Dwarf-fathers came from it.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-12-2002, 05:37 AM

That's right! Go look up the faery-tale, Snow White and Rose Red. You will see that the parallels are there. The dwarves were not quite Disney-like. The story itself is harsher, more historic feeling, and is much longer due to the fact that there are two faerytales of ours combined together in it.
I know you will enjoy reading The Brothers Grimm... Grimm... such a nice name! (Lapsing into Addamish babble..oh dear, it IS early in the morning here.. must...find...coffee.. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

InklingElf · 09-12-2002, 06:27 PM

aaahh indeed! Tolkien being furious at Disney? -well I wouldn't really think so...I'll have to and you'll have to look at Tolkien's text on that subject

***Thenamir*** · 09-12-2002, 06:51 PM

For the background of why Tolkien was mad at Walt Disney, please see The Tale of Lossiel It explains much...as does the fact that it is on the Tolkien Crackpot Theories page. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Thenamir of Rohan
Captain of the Rohan Polo Team

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thenamir ]

DarkRose · 09-12-2002, 08:07 PM

I never knew if my dad's little informative story about Tolkien loathing Disney was true...

I suppose it is an unclear matter, aye?

Thanks for that link, though!

Raefindel · 09-12-2002, 10:23 PM

Yes, I've thought of the Seven Dwarves before. I've wondered what their names could be... Sloppy, Sleezy...

Tirned Tinnu · 09-14-2002, 01:31 AM

Very interesting.... but you cannot draw a good conclusion from that. It might sound like JRR had a problem with Walt over copywrite problems, if so, why didn't Tolkien sue him??
It seems rather odd to me.
Unless, of course, the story of Snow White and Rose Red was considered public property, and that changing the names did not change the fact that it was public. *shaking her head* Does anyone know the details?

mark12_30 · 09-14-2002, 06:51 AM

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter.
From Letter 13 (page 17 in book), regarding an american edition of The Hobbit, in which Tolkien states :

"It might be advisable, rather than lose the American interest {in The Hobbit--MK12_30} to let the Americans do what seems good to them-- as long as it was possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney Studios (for all whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)"

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-15-2002, 03:38 AM

Hmmmmmm! Alright. Let me put a "for instance" in here. Did anyone see "The Black Cauldron"? I was a reader of Lloyd Alexander before I read Lewis. I was looking forward to seeing Taran and Gurgi and Flwydder The Bard! What did I get? Kid stuff. No truly evil Arainrod, no evil smelling hairy-man-beast Gurgi. What I got were kids and a fluffy thing with buck teeth that was more teddy-bear than man.

I detested the Disney adaptation of "The Black Cauldon" and have ceased to pay much attention to anything Disney does these days.
Perhaps this sort of mussing with a person's writing is what Tolkien referred to. If so, I'm right up there with him.

Melephelwen · 09-15-2002, 04:00 AM

Quote:

It might sound like JRR had a problem with Walt over copywrite problems, if so, why didn't Tolkien sue him??

Well, Tinnu, maybe because Tolkien wasn't (as this behaviour unfortunately seems to be occasionally) a typical American. I don't want to come up with any examples for this claim.

I think the seven dwarves are out of the thing about 7 being a magic number. You can look in almost any fairytale and find the number seven. It's a sort of mythical number, along with 3, 9 and 12. One example is (next to the others already stated) Rumpelstiltskin, which includes 3.
I don't have more this discussion for now, but I'll return!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

charly · 09-15-2002, 02:22 PM

Umm, to everybody here... you´re getting something MIXED UP. I don´t want to be the total know-all but... Snow-white does exist as a grimm fairy tale! The story is pretty the same as in the disney movie... the dwarves do NOT have names though(duh).
Snow-white and Rose-red is a very DIFFERENT fairytale. Even though it´s the same names, it´s a very different story- with, as a matter of fact a very different orgin. I just wanted to make things clearer-sorry if it annoyed you.
Seven dwarves... good thinking! Ummm, see i read this thing that tolkien originally wanted six dwarves -and rings-, to have a pattern. 9 ring for men, 6 for dwarwes, 3 for elves... get it? Maybe he changed it ´cause people were getting so used to "seven dwarwes " by now. But maybe he did take the seven dwarves idea from snow-white- without wanting to! Maybe he read the fairy-tale and then-years later- wrote about seven dwarwes in middle-earth. The idea at stayed in the back of his mind and then, pushed itself foreward- like an own thought. That does happen, you know.

Belin · 09-15-2002, 05:39 PM

(heh, that's quite a brilliant link, thanks Thena [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

charly—-Thank you, I thought I was going insane for a moment there. Indeed, the two stories are not very similar at all. There is a dwarf in "Snow-White and Rose-Red," but he’s a nasty, disagreeable sort who goes around grumbling and putting curses on people, while the dwarves in Snow White are very helpful, and take care of her, and untie the tight sash and take out the poisoned comb and so forth. In any case, from the impression I get from “On Fairy-Stories,” it seems unlikely that Tolkien would have disliked Disney simply because they changed fairy tales, which is something that happens inevitably anyway, but because he detected a condescending tone in Disney movies like that he criticized in Lang. This is, however, pure speculation.

Tirned Tinnu—-Well met, friend of Prydain!! I, too, was appalled by the movie with its bizarre Gurgi, its inexplicably diminutive and fluttery Doli and the total absence of anyone even faintly resembling Gwydion, or Ellidyr, or Adaon, or Achren (that is what you mean by Arainrod, isn’t it? Or have I completely overlooked someone?) and its ridiculous attempt to collapse two novels into one movie..but I think this is a different case, because it is meddling with, as you say, a person’s writing, rather than a fairy tale that belongs to everyone and may exist in several different versions.

But, ahem, this has nothing to do with the original question, the connection between seven and dwarves. I think, charly, that it’s hardly something he would have forgotten (although I must admit I didn’t notice it before), and Tolkien wouldn’t be above putting in such a thing as a subtle little joke of that kind. I often get the sense that there is deep, quiet laughter behind the seriousness of the story...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-16-2002, 09:15 AM

Yes, Belin, you've hit it on the head. I was stumbling back into my days as a Welsh scholar, and naming the god that I thought was being represented there.

As for Snow White and Rose Red - that's the original version, handed down through storytellers. It would be a good thing to study the original, then the Grimm version, the Disney version,Tolkien's version, and how they all tie up together. I saw that there is another site in this thread....I shall go to check it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

09-11-2002, 05:01 PM	#1
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	snowwhite and the 7 dwarves ? ok this seems like something that would go in middle earth mayhem, but it could get turned into something big. ok i was thinking in the shower, and i was thinking about the dwarven rings, and somehow i thought about the 7 dwarves from snowwhite. is theyre any relation, any symbolism ? any thing at all ? has this thought ever crossed anyones mind? i dont know it may seem stupid, but i thought it a bit ironic __________________ i like pants!

09-11-2002, 08:56 PM	#3
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	It could be, maybe, since the movie came out early enough. But I have strong doubts there is any relation. You might try reading through Tolkien's letters and find the section about the creation of the dwarves and elves and what he wanted to accomplish with them and how the dwarves were different from the common idea. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

09-11-2002, 09:00 PM	#4
DarkRose Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sauron's Garden Posts: 157	Speaking of this topic.. I believe my dad told me that Tolkien was very furious at Walt Disney for making Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I heard that Tolkien accused Disney of stealing his idea, and thus held a nasty dislike for ole' Disney. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ "All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full."

09-11-2002, 09:05 PM	#5
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Um, no. Tolkien, being a well-read man, would have had the knowledge to realize that the story of Snow White was not invented by Disney. Read up on your old German fairy tales, look in Grimm's Fairy Tales or a comparable source. The story has been documented to the eighteenth century, and is probably a bit older. Tolkien would most certainly have been familiar with the tale, and it certainly is a good chance that the idea of the seven Dwarf-fathers came from it. [ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

09-12-2002, 05:37 AM	#6
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	That's right! Go look up the faery-tale, Snow White and Rose Red. You will see that the parallels are there. The dwarves were not quite Disney-like. The story itself is harsher, more historic feeling, and is much longer due to the fact that there are two faerytales of ours combined together in it. I know you will enjoy reading The Brothers Grimm... Grimm... such a nice name! (Lapsing into Addamish babble..oh dear, it IS early in the morning here.. must...find...coffee.. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-11-2002, 05:04 PM	#2
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	...hmm yes I see your point. I bet Tolkien liked the idea of seven dwarves-so he put it in his writing...other than that well...

09-12-2002, 06:27 PM	#7
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	aaahh indeed! Tolkien being furious at Disney? -well I wouldn't really think so...I'll have to and you'll have to look at Tolkien's text on that subject

09-12-2002, 06:51 PM	#8
*Thenamir* Spectre of Capitalism Join Date: May 2001 Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae Posts: 985	For the background of why Tolkien was mad at Walt Disney, please see The Tale of Lossiel It explains much...as does the fact that it is on the Tolkien Crackpot Theories page. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thenamir of Rohan Captain of the Rohan Polo Team [ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thenamir ] __________________ The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius

09-12-2002, 08:07 PM	#9
DarkRose Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sauron's Garden Posts: 157	I never knew if my dad's little informative story about Tolkien loathing Disney was true... I suppose it is an unclear matter, aye? Thanks for that link, though! __________________ "All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full."

09-12-2002, 10:23 PM	#10
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	Yes, I've thought of the Seven Dwarves before. I've wondered what their names could be... Sloppy, Sleezy... __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

09-14-2002, 01:31 AM	#11
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Very interesting.... but you cannot draw a good conclusion from that. It might sound like JRR had a problem with Walt over copywrite problems, if so, why didn't Tolkien sue him?? It seems rather odd to me. Unless, of course, the story of Snow White and Rose Red was considered public property, and that changing the names did not change the fact that it was public. shaking her head Does anyone know the details? __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-14-2002, 06:51 AM	#12
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter. From Letter 13 (page 17 in book), regarding an american edition of The Hobbit, in which Tolkien states : "It might be advisable, rather than lose the American interest {in The Hobbit--MK12_30} to let the Americans do what seems good to them-- as long as it was possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney Studios (for all whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)" [ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-15-2002, 03:38 AM	#13
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Hmmmmmm! Alright. Let me put a "for instance" in here. Did anyone see "The Black Cauldron"? I was a reader of Lloyd Alexander before I read Lewis. I was looking forward to seeing Taran and Gurgi and Flwydder The Bard! What did I get? Kid stuff. No truly evil Arainrod, no evil smelling hairy-man-beast Gurgi. What I got were kids and a fluffy thing with buck teeth that was more teddy-bear than man. I detested the Disney adaptation of "The Black Cauldon" and have ceased to pay much attention to anything Disney does these days. Perhaps this sort of mussing with a person's writing is what Tolkien referred to. If so, I'm right up there with him. __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-15-2002, 02:22 PM	#15
charly Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: middle earth, dork Posts: 84	Umm, to everybody here... you´re getting something MIXED UP. I don´t want to be the total know-all but... Snow-white does exist as a grimm fairy tale! The story is pretty the same as in the disney movie... the dwarves do NOT have names though(duh). Snow-white and Rose-red is a very DIFFERENT fairytale. Even though it´s the same names, it´s a very different story- with, as a matter of fact a very different orgin. I just wanted to make things clearer-sorry if it annoyed you. Seven dwarves... good thinking! Ummm, see i read this thing that tolkien originally wanted six dwarves -and rings-, to have a pattern. 9 ring for men, 6 for dwarwes, 3 for elves... get it? Maybe he changed it ´cause people were getting so used to "seven dwarwes " by now. But maybe he did take the seven dwarves idea from snow-white- without wanting to! Maybe he read the fairy-tale and then-years later- wrote about seven dwarwes in middle-earth. The idea at stayed in the back of his mind and then, pushed itself foreward- like an own thought. That does happen, you know. __________________ "Whom do you serve, scum?"

09-15-2002, 05:39 PM	#16
Belin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world Posts: 330	(heh, that's quite a brilliant link, thanks Thena [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) charly—-Thank you, I thought I was going insane for a moment there. Indeed, the two stories are not very similar at all. There is a dwarf in "Snow-White and Rose-Red," but he’s a nasty, disagreeable sort who goes around grumbling and putting curses on people, while the dwarves in Snow White are very helpful, and take care of her, and untie the tight sash and take out the poisoned comb and so forth. In any case, from the impression I get from “On Fairy-Stories,” it seems unlikely that Tolkien would have disliked Disney simply because they changed fairy tales, which is something that happens inevitably anyway, but because he detected a condescending tone in Disney movies like that he criticized in Lang. This is, however, pure speculation. Tirned Tinnu—-Well met, friend of Prydain!! I, too, was appalled by the movie with its bizarre Gurgi, its inexplicably diminutive and fluttery Doli and the total absence of anyone even faintly resembling Gwydion, or Ellidyr, or Adaon, or Achren (that is what you mean by Arainrod, isn’t it? Or have I completely overlooked someone?) and its ridiculous attempt to collapse two novels into one movie..but I think this is a different case, because it is meddling with, as you say, a person’s writing, rather than a fairy tale that belongs to everyone and may exist in several different versions. But, ahem, this has nothing to do with the original question, the connection between seven and dwarves. I think, charly, that it’s hardly something he would have forgotten (although I must admit I didn’t notice it before), and Tolkien wouldn’t be above putting in such a thing as a subtle little joke of that kind. I often get the sense that there is deep, quiet laughter behind the seriousness of the story... --Belin Ibaimendi [ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ] __________________ "I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum

09-16-2002, 09:15 AM	#17
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Yes, Belin, you've hit it on the head. I was stumbling back into my days as a Welsh scholar, and naming the god that I thought was being represented there. As for Snow White and Rose Red - that's the original version, handed down through storytellers. It would be a good thing to study the original, then the Grimm version, the Disney version,Tolkien's version, and how they all tie up together. I saw that there is another site in this thread....I shall go to check it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'