The out-of-wedlock child - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Saulotus · 10-26-2000, 12:23 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 204</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Since the question has still not been answered, I'll just throw it out here and let Jes settle the question in the trivia section.

As stated; I believed this might have some use as a discussion topic.

The answer according to text by Tolkien: Aranarth.
The Birth of Aranarth is given as T.A. 1938; while the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel is given as T.A. 1940.

The dates were revised between Aranarth and Aragorn II with care by Tolkien.
He purposely did not alter Aranarth or Aragorn II, nor has any other date for the marriage of Firiel and Arvedui been seen.

The discussion I surmised that might be of value is of the prophecy of Malbeth concerning Arvedui and the rejection of the claim by Gondor (when according to Law; Firiel's children had a legal claim, also evidenced by sister-son descent in the Stewards with Denethor I).

I also had a question on Numenorean coutship lengths: answer; 3 years was considered 'normal'.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Aldarion and Erendis
'Now the year came in, in which all looked for the marriage of the King's Heir; for it was not custom that betrothal should last much longer than three years.'<hr></blockquote>
How much this applies to Dunedain customs retained from Numenorean customs is questionable; however the dating seems to also give additional credence.

So with this; does the prophecy of Malbeth hint at an untold dark tale of the reign of Arvedui and its disaster from this foray into promiscuity leading to the downfall of Arthedain, yet setting the stage for the Return of the King?

</p>

HerenIstarion · 10-27-2000, 01:06 PM

Wight
Posts: 150

Malbeth's prophecy contained some ifs. There were two choices, as I understand - Arvedui the last king dying or rebuilding united kingdom. Still, your question is hard enough for me to answer completely. Instead I can give another quote:

Quote:

Things might have been different, but they could not have been better

I reckon this principle is applied in this case too

Arvedui · 05-02-2003, 11:44 AM

I thought Fíriel and I kept this a secret. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Interesting discussion though the passing of time has hidden it in the annals of Barrow Downs. Here is a question.. If Arvedui had made his claim as the heir of Elendil and husband of the only remaining living descendant of King Ondoher, instead as the heir of Isildur, do you think it would have been a different succession? As it was, the crown was given to Eärnil, great-great-grandson of Telumehtar who was the 28th king on the claim Gondor was ruled by the line of Anorien. Thoughts?

I need to go over the whole appendices of Lord of the Rings again as a refresher.

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-02-2003, 12:09 PM

IMO the 1938 date is a simple lacunae the Professor missed - he also has Aragorn living one hundred and ninety years rather than two hundred and ten on that same list after all.

That the Ruling Stewards allowed the white rod to pass through the female line to sister-sons suggests they were hypocrites of the first water.

Arvedui · 05-02-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

That the Ruling Stewards allowed the white rod to pass through the female line to sister-sons suggests they were hypocrites of the first water.

It did set a precedent, but then the 'new' line didn't last too long.

HerenIstarion · 02-15-2004, 08:37 AM

up, for som reason

10-26-2000, 12:23 AM	#1
Saulotus Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 346	The out-of-wedlock child <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 204</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Since the question has still not been answered, I'll just throw it out here and let Jes settle the question in the trivia section. As stated; I believed this might have some use as a discussion topic. The answer according to text by Tolkien: Aranarth. The Birth of Aranarth is given as T.A. 1938; while the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel is given as T.A. 1940. The dates were revised between Aranarth and Aragorn II with care by Tolkien. He purposely did not alter Aranarth or Aragorn II, nor has any other date for the marriage of Firiel and Arvedui been seen. The discussion I surmised that might be of value is of the prophecy of Malbeth concerning Arvedui and the rejection of the claim by Gondor (when according to Law; Firiel's children had a legal claim, also evidenced by sister-son descent in the Stewards with Denethor I). I also had a question on Numenorean coutship lengths: answer; 3 years was considered 'normal'. <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Aldarion and Erendis 'Now the year came in, in which all looked for the marriage of the King's Heir; for it was not custom that betrothal should last much longer than three years.'<hr></blockquote> How much this applies to Dunedain customs retained from Numenorean customs is questionable; however the dating seems to also give additional credence. So with this; does the prophecy of Malbeth hint at an untold dark tale of the reign of Arvedui and its disaster from this foray into promiscuity leading to the downfall of Arthedain, yet setting the stage for the Return of the King? </p>

05-02-2003, 11:44 AM	#3
Arvedui Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Annúminas Posts: 56	I thought Fíriel and I kept this a secret. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Interesting discussion though the passing of time has hidden it in the annals of Barrow Downs. Here is a question.. If Arvedui had made his claim as the heir of Elendil and husband of the only remaining living descendant of King Ondoher, instead as the heir of Isildur, do you think it would have been a different succession? As it was, the crown was given to Eärnil, great-great-grandson of Telumehtar who was the 28th king on the claim Gondor was ruled by the line of Anorien. Thoughts? I need to go over the whole appendices of Lord of the Rings again as a refresher. __________________ When Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule of the south in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever.

02-15-2004, 08:37 AM	#6
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	up, for som reason __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

05-02-2003, 12:09 PM	#4
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	IMO the 1938 date is a simple lacunae the Professor missed - he also has Aragorn living one hundred and ninety years rather than two hundred and ten on that same list after all. That the Ruling Stewards allowed the white rod to pass through the female line to sister-sons suggests they were hypocrites of the first water.