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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor
Posts: 201
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Hello, i was just thinking could Sauron controle 'free'* Balrogs? I mean they were maiar would a Balrog accept Sauron as Morgoths succesor?
*After Morgoth was put in to the Outer Dark
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'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara. |
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
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It is probable that after Morgoth's fall and banishment, the Balrog of Moria was the only one left. I doubt whether Sauron could control him, since they were both pretty powerful Maia, though with the One Ring, he would have a better chance to.
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“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone |
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#3 |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
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I don't think Sauron could control the Balrogs, and I don't think he meant to. Where else than in Moria would he have liked a Balrog (except in his army, but this is out of the question because he couldn't control it).
Sauron as 'his puppet', which made the pass near Isengard very dangerous. Caradhras was also a way with risk. And then a Balrog in Moria to block all the ways from West to East and the otherway round. Could it be better? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] greetings, lathspell P.S.: By the way, I doubt if Sauron knew there was a Balrog in Moria. The Wise didnt know until Gandalf had to fight it.
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#4 | |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
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This should of course be: Saruman as 'his puppet'!
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#5 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,329
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You may wish to check (or post on) this thread which addresses the same subject in some length.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#6 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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As to whether or not the balrog was under the direct control is debatable and a case could be made for both sides. Just because Sauron is now the Dark Lord does not automatically place the balrog under his authority. It's possible that the balrog would acknowledge Sauron as Morgoth's heir, but not definite. From 'Myths Transformed':
Quote:
[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#7 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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if the balrog was once a maia, it should be intelligent. however, all it does is roar a bit. are balrogs actually intelligent?
if they are, then the balrog might have joined forces with sauron to rule the world, if not then it might have been his slave if he found out about it. ive found a minor problem: the ring lived in moria. the balrog, a powerful maia, slave of sauron and force of extreme evil, also lived in moria. how comes he didnt notice its presence? surely a servant of morgoth would feel the power of the ring? |
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor
Posts: 201
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The Balrog diddnt 'roar' it was silent, and i diddnt know the ring lived in Moria thort gollems cave was in the north and Moria was more to the south.
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'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara. |
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#9 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 85
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Do you remember what the emmisary of Sauron said to Dain, King of the Lonely Mountain:
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#10 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
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very good point there.
how powerful was the balrog though? sauron was an extremely powerful maia wasnt he, if it took 5 others (the wizards) to rival him. if the balrog was inferior, it might have been under his control |
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#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iron Hills
Posts: 127
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Sauron is probably the most powerful of the maia--all maia are not equal. Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar because he used all of his thougt and power to increase his power, while he was also the most powerful to begin with. Sauron learned a lot from his old master, and in fact did much of the work for Morgoth (breeding Orcs, preparing his armies, etc.), and somewhere I think Tolkien even said "Sauron at the end of the third age could be considered as powerful as Morgoth at the end of the first" or something like that (in a letter or note, not text). Sauron has raised himself above the level of many of the "simpler" maiar spirits, among which I count balrogs. But, even if he is more powerful than a balrog, I don't think he could easily get Durin's Bane to join his armies, and he knows it can serve a purpose where it is, anyway.
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Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. |
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#12 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#13 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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I am not convinced. If Sauron had the abitlity to rule or control a Balrog he most certainly would have already done so. The Moria Balrog was freed and running around loose for quite a while, and Sauron was aware of it. The argument that Sauron "choose" not to do anything isnt valid in my opinion. If you have enough orcs, you could control that area of the Misty Mountains. You dont need a Balrog.
Being a Maia to me doesnt necessarily mean that there is intelligence. There is a spirit though, be it benevolent or malevolent. And there is a degree of the power of that spirit, lesser or greater. Sauron was described as Morgoths greatest captains, wasnt he? To me, that sounds like a Number 1 (sorry about the Trek reference)... |
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#14 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iron Hills
Posts: 127
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Well, if it was just orcs in Moria, I think the dwarves would have come back. It was Durin's Bane that kept them out for all those years, not the orcs. Sauron was operating in secrecy for so long, and a balrog is not an easy thing to hide from people. I don't think he was necessarily able to fully control the balrog, but Sauron is definitely more powerful.
About Morgoth, I felt that while he was the mightiest (I'm still not clear whether Manwe was his equal or not--Tolkien says "coeval") to begin with, the fact that he obsessed with power and violence made him more able in those areas than almost all of the other Valar combined, that's all. I mean, it was him against the rest for a long time, and they had trouble subduing him. And if Gandalf was Sauron's equal, why isn't the White Council able to subdue him? I think it's all a matter of what they specialize in, and since Sauron is a master of deception and destruction, he is the most powerful Maia (in ME) in that. I don't think Balrogs are in his league...
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Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. |
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 182
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I agree with Dain.
In LOTR, Gandalf does say something to the effect of "I am the most dangerous person you'll meet unless perhaps you meet Sauron." The "perhaps" indicates that Gandalf is pretty close to being as powerful as Sauron if he isn't already. Same with the Valar and Melkor. It seems ridiculous that Melkor could be powerful enough to overcome all the Valar combined. I do think Melkor was coeval with Manwe at the beginning and that he lost his power as he went. He does seem to have an edge in the violence department (as does Sauron), however. So, to me, that explains why Sauron and Melkor were able to last so long. Even though they were in the minority and were not the most powerful they had an edge in the violence/destruction area. Also, it's hard to get good guys to agree to fight, because fighting does go against good tendencies. Hmmmm, we may be seeing that playing out in global politics, right now. The similarities are rather striking. But, that is getting supremely off topic and will no doubt open a can of worms, so I'll just let you all think about it to yourselves!
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#16 |
Guest
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One thing i believe is that Gandalf could easily have been Saurons equal, but in the "spirit realm" so to speak. When Manwe asked Gandalf to go help middle earth, he was afraid to come, not necessarily because Sauron was so powerful, but because Gandalf could not use his Maia powers in middle earth to rival Sauron. Gandalf was the only one who succeeded and stayed the course, so that must be why Manwe chose him because he could percieve what was to happen somewhat and he knew Olorin was true of heart. Maybe I am rambling, sorry.
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#17 | ||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sauron was more powerful than the Balrogs, though. Tolkien is pretty plain about it in MT: Quote:
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#18 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iron Hills
Posts: 127
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I see what you are saying, now. It was sort of what I was getting at, but you are more accurate. Gandalf had specific limitations on what he could do, that makes sense, and though maybe I'm not yet convinced he was quite a match for Sauron, I don't really want to get into an discussion that you've already had. I think Morgoth was very powerful, but much too chaotic and angry--I think Sauron is much more dangerous in a way, because he is more cunning and devious (originally one of Aule's best students...). It says in the Silm. that in everything Morgoth did, Sauron was there with him, and the label "the greatest of his captains" is a little unfair to Sauron, as is definitely comparing him to Will Riker... Sauron terrorised ME for two ages, and they were very lucky to get rid of him, he deserves all the respect he gets for being the best baddie ever.
Underlying my thoughts here is my attempt to figure out the relative powers of the 1st and 3rd ages--the 1st clearly has the greatest heroes, and more big monsters--Balrogs are common--but uber-villians-wise, Sauron is still around in the 3rd age, and nobody there can hope to match him, bar Gandalf. That's why Gandalf is so cool...
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Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. |
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