Who were more powerful Men or Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aule · 07-23-2002, 06:49 PM

This has been on my mind for some time.
If both men and elves had a war against each other who would win. Each being as powerful as they were at the height of their power (Numenor - when they attempted to attack the valar, and when the Noldor returned to ME).
The men had become powerful and long lived and had developed strong weapons of war, while the elves spirit still burned bright within as they had only just left valinor (if thats the right place) and therefore were probably at their strongest.
Was there that much difference between the edain and the elves.
Another thought did the Numenorians have a kind of inferiority complex, no matter how powerful they became they still always felt like the weaker people compared to the elves.They couldn't match up to these immortals .This ****ed them off pushing them over time to turn to evil.
Hope i got this idea over well enough, but as you can see i'm not to good with writing down my ideas.

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-23-2002, 07:33 PM

you may be off on the height of the elves power, but at their actual greatest it would depend on numbers, if the elves were out numbered 5 to 1 how could they win? and also the Numenoreans were mariners, what if the bulk of the fighting was inland? and another issue, what about dwarves? they might help the noldor because of their freind ship with auleor might take men's side for other reasons

steve · 07-23-2002, 07:47 PM

Sarin, i belive he was trying to say that if both elves and men at the hight of their powers and equially numbered with no outside interfierance, who would win in a war

O'Boile · 07-24-2002, 01:13 PM

Probably the elves. They had more great leaders (in fact, the kings of Numenour were descended of elves). They also had much better weaponry and 'magic'.

Aule · 07-24-2002, 01:56 PM

The elves magic wasn't quite what you think it was. It wasn't offensive magic like fireballs and lightning but was used to create beauty.
In my opinion the dwarves were never as powerfull as men or elves. I know they were strong and hardy but i wasn't considering them in this question.

Dimaldaeon · 07-24-2002, 02:20 PM

Of course this could all depand on where they were fighting e.g if they were in underground tunnels the Dwarves would win. They did sack Menegroth. Also I read somewhere that Sauron tried to corrupt the elves of Eregion because they were the strongest of Eru's children.

Arwen Imladris · 07-24-2002, 02:20 PM

Oh man! My brother would kill you right about now! (he loves the dwarves!) I don't think that the dwarves are any less then the elves or men. They live a long time, they are very good with metals and things. Without them, many of the elves wouldn't have known how to work metals, or it would have tooken them longer. It was in large part the dwarves that got rid of smog, even though it was a man that killed him, the dwarves took the first step. Also, don't forget about Mim, it seems like he kindof saved Turin.

Back on track, I think that the elves would probebly win, just because they are kind of.. imortal.

Halbereth Diagona · 07-24-2002, 03:12 PM

I'd say the elves, because they can produce better weaponry than men.

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-24-2002, 03:34 PM

With out the Dwarves The elves of ME would not have had any knowledge of wepons untill the noldor came into exile, the dwarves of Belegost also invented chain mail. no race ever surpassed the dwarves in the working of steel, many wepons of the eldar and the edain were forged by dwarves, they were at least as powerful as elves and men, but excluding themfrom a war between elves and men the elves would most likely win, they were "not as easily slain by wepons"

Aule · 07-24-2002, 04:58 PM

I suppose elves were the strongest esp the eldar (i think they were the ones that have seen the light of the trees)but i can't see the dwarves beating men(numenorians) or elves on open ground but i concede that they would kick *** in the mines.
And as o'boile said
paraphrase - the elves had more great leaders

there must have been 100 of great Lord like Glorfindel and Ecthelion for the elves but only 10/20 great Lords of Men at a time the rest just being the regular soldiers

burrahobbit · 07-24-2002, 08:56 PM

They each have their own different sorts of powers, it really isn't a fair comparison.

Lindolirian · 07-24-2002, 08:59 PM

I have thought about this much too. I am quite sure that Elves are more powerful than Men in Arda. bUt as we all know, Men die and recieve The Gift of Eru, while Elves stay in Arda. It says in the Silmarillion that even the Powers (the Valar) will even the death of Men. I think that Tolkien meant to say that Men go on to greater things, or other worlds, where they rule supreme. Like our World. Of course, this is all speculation, bu that's just my two cents.

O'Boile · 07-25-2002, 09:35 AM

Aule, I know about elvish magic... see my posts on the topic in other threads. It would still be useful however in a fight however, as they have the ability to disguise themselves (at least some of them do). Additionally, they have better weapons etc.

greyhavener · 07-25-2002, 10:49 AM

I think the elves would win.

O'Boile makes a good point. Elvin swords seems to be regarded as superior. Unless men found a shady elvin arms dealer they would probably be in trouble.

Elves are better at hiding then men and therefore could wage very effective guerilla warfare.

Elves being the best shipbuilders would most likely win at sea.

Elves being the best healers and makers of waybread would most likely have the healthier and better fed troops.

I guess if the dwarves supplied arms and the war dragged out sufficiently long for men to outnumber elves (elves don't seem to be as prolific) men might pull it off, but not without help from dwarves.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-25-2002, 11:28 AM

I think I agree with burrahobbit on this one. Men and Elves were both granted their own fortes in different areas so that they wouldn't have to fight over the same things. They were created differently for a purpose, and are hardly comparable.

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-25-2002, 03:13 PM

Yes men elves and dwarves were created whith different powers so they would be in that sort of competition, and given that the ships of the teleri were practicly unsinkable (it says so in the Silm/UT)numenor would have a disadvatage, and if the elves hid in fangorn forest any attackers would have to be real nice to the ents and their trees, though unaided by others elves would win over men

Sarin Elfarmour · 07-27-2002, 08:15 PM

this topic was very popular for awile there, and now its not, have we concluded without an acutal conclusion?

Galorme · 07-28-2002, 11:40 AM

While the elves in Middle Earth may be defeatable the Vanya would be totally unassailable, no mater how mighty Atlanate may have been. But if you say "at the height of their power" where does it end?

It is said in many of the HoME that Túrin would better Morgoth at his full strength at the worlds end, and if even numbers was One on One I don’t know if any elf could stand up to that. But then again Lúthien took down Melkor too, and she is the greatest of the Eldar (for the purpose of my post), then it comes down to who would win out of Túrin and Lúthion. But Túrin has shown to be very vonerable to magic, and Luthien’s magic would be stronger than Glaurung, as I doubt Morgoth would create a dragon that was strong enough to influence his will like Lúthien did. So I would say that in larger numbers the Vanya would win (one to the Eldar) and if it was One on One the Eldar would win also. I suppose in smaller numbers (Ring Wraiths and Rangers Vs Vayna anyone?) the outcome would be debatable.

O'Boile · 07-29-2002, 11:03 AM

Before I said that elves would win... but now I'm not so sure. I just read a letter by JRRT (at the start of my copy of the Silmarilion) and in it he says that the fleet of Numenor could (as in had a chance) of destroying Valinar. That is why the Valar appealed to Illuvatar for help (and thus the sinking of Numenor and the removal of Valinor from the world occurs). This made me think that I may have underestimated the strength of men at their peak.

Manwe Sulimo · 07-29-2002, 12:11 PM

Location Victor

Mountains Elves
Desert Men
Plains Toss-up
River Side Elves
Forest Elves
Sea Toss-up

Elves had the immense advantage of range (longbows), so an approaching army would be decimated if the Elves had a height advantage. On plains, it would be even, because the Men would reach the Elves by the time a third salvo got off. In the desert, the dunes would work to infantry's advantage. At sea, Men had more ships, but Elves had better ships. A river would prevent Men from closing to meléê , and the archers could pick them off one by one. Forest: think talans.

07-23-2002, 06:49 PM	#1
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	Who were more powerful Men or Elves This has been on my mind for some time. If both men and elves had a war against each other who would win. Each being as powerful as they were at the height of their power (Numenor - when they attempted to attack the valar, and when the Noldor returned to ME). The men had become powerful and long lived and had developed strong weapons of war, while the elves spirit still burned bright within as they had only just left valinor (if thats the right place) and therefore were probably at their strongest. Was there that much difference between the edain and the elves. Another thought did the Numenorians have a kind of inferiority complex, no matter how powerful they became they still always felt like the weaker people compared to the elves.They couldn't match up to these immortals .This ***ed them off pushing them over time to turn to evil. Hope i got this idea over well enough, but as you can see i'm not to good with writing down my ideas. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning* - of Melkor before his final downfall

07-23-2002, 07:33 PM	#2
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	you may be off on the height of the elves power, but at their actual greatest it would depend on numbers, if the elves were out numbered 5 to 1 how could they win? and also the Numenoreans were mariners, what if the bulk of the fighting was inland? and another issue, what about dwarves? they might help the noldor because of their freind ship with auleor might take men's side for other reasons __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu

07-23-2002, 07:47 PM	#3
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Sarin, i belive he was trying to say that if both elves and men at the hight of their powers and equially numbered with no outside interfierance, who would win in a war __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

07-24-2002, 01:56 PM	#5
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	The elves magic wasn't quite what you think it was. It wasn't offensive magic like fireballs and lightning but was used to create beauty. In my opinion the dwarves were never as powerfull as men or elves. I know they were strong and hardy but i wasn't considering them in this question. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

07-24-2002, 02:20 PM	#6
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	Of course this could all depand on where they were fighting e.g if they were in underground tunnels the Dwarves would win. They did sack Menegroth. Also I read somewhere that Sauron tried to corrupt the elves of Eregion because they were the strongest of Eru's children. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

07-24-2002, 01:13 PM	#4
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Probably the elves. They had more great leaders (in fact, the kings of Numenour were descended of elves). They also had much better weaponry and 'magic'.

07-24-2002, 02:20 PM	#7
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Oh man! My brother would kill you right about now! (he loves the dwarves!) I don't think that the dwarves are any less then the elves or men. They live a long time, they are very good with metals and things. Without them, many of the elves wouldn't have known how to work metals, or it would have tooken them longer. It was in large part the dwarves that got rid of smog, even though it was a man that killed him, the dwarves took the first step. Also, don't forget about Mim, it seems like he kindof saved Turin. Back on track, I think that the elves would probebly win, just because they are kind of.. imortal. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

07-24-2002, 03:12 PM	#8
Halbereth Diagona Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mirkwood, duh. Why would I be anywhere else? Posts: 143	I'd say the elves, because they can produce better weaponry than men. __________________ HALBERETH DIAGONA I'm back! Kicks computer stupid thing for breaking down. Miss me? Didn't think so...

07-24-2002, 03:34 PM	#9
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	With out the Dwarves The elves of ME would not have had any knowledge of wepons untill the noldor came into exile, the dwarves of Belegost also invented chain mail. no race ever surpassed the dwarves in the working of steel, many wepons of the eldar and the edain were forged by dwarves, they were at least as powerful as elves and men, but excluding themfrom a war between elves and men the elves would most likely win, they were "not as easily slain by wepons" __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu

07-24-2002, 04:58 PM	#10
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	I suppose elves were the strongest esp the eldar (i think they were the ones that have seen the light of the trees)but i can't see the dwarves beating men(numenorians) or elves on open ground but i concede that they would kick *** in the mines. And as o'boile said paraphrase - the elves had more great leaders there must have been 100 of great Lord like Glorfindel and Ecthelion for the elves but only 10/20 great Lords of Men at a time the rest just being the regular soldiers __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

07-24-2002, 08:56 PM	#11
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	They each have their own different sorts of powers, it really isn't a fair comparison. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-24-2002, 08:59 PM	#12
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	I have thought about this much too. I am quite sure that Elves are more powerful than Men in Arda. bUt as we all know, Men die and recieve The Gift of Eru, while Elves stay in Arda. It says in the Silmarillion that even the Powers (the Valar) will even the death of Men. I think that Tolkien meant to say that Men go on to greater things, or other worlds, where they rule supreme. Like our World. Of course, this is all speculation, bu that's just my two cents. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

07-25-2002, 09:35 AM	#13
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Aule, I know about elvish magic... see my posts on the topic in other threads. It would still be useful however in a fight however, as they have the ability to disguise themselves (at least some of them do). Additionally, they have better weapons etc.

07-25-2002, 10:49 AM	#14
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	I think the elves would win. O'Boile makes a good point. Elvin swords seems to be regarded as superior. Unless men found a shady elvin arms dealer they would probably be in trouble. Elves are better at hiding then men and therefore could wage very effective guerilla warfare. Elves being the best shipbuilders would most likely win at sea. Elves being the best healers and makers of waybread would most likely have the healthier and better fed troops. I guess if the dwarves supplied arms and the war dragged out sufficiently long for men to outnumber elves (elves don't seem to be as prolific) men might pull it off, but not without help from dwarves. __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

07-25-2002, 11:28 AM	#15
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I think I agree with burrahobbit on this one. Men and Elves were both granted their own fortes in different areas so that they wouldn't have to fight over the same things. They were created differently for a purpose, and are hardly comparable. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-25-2002, 03:13 PM	#16
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	Yes men elves and dwarves were created whith different powers so they would be in that sort of competition, and given that the ships of the teleri were practicly unsinkable (it says so in the Silm/UT)numenor would have a disadvatage, and if the elves hid in fangorn forest any attackers would have to be real nice to the ents and their trees, though unaided by others elves would win over men __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu

07-27-2002, 08:15 PM	#17
Sarin Elfarmour Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 43	this topic was very popular for awile there, and now its not, have we concluded without an acutal conclusion? __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu

07-28-2002, 11:40 AM	#18
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	While the elves in Middle Earth may be defeatable the Vanya would be totally unassailable, no mater how mighty Atlanate may have been. But if you say "at the height of their power" where does it end? It is said in many of the HoME that Túrin would better Morgoth at his full strength at the worlds end, and if even numbers was One on One I don’t know if any elf could stand up to that. But then again Lúthien took down Melkor too, and she is the greatest of the Eldar (for the purpose of my post), then it comes down to who would win out of Túrin and Lúthion. But Túrin has shown to be very vonerable to magic, and Luthien’s magic would be stronger than Glaurung, as I doubt Morgoth would create a dragon that was strong enough to influence his will like Lúthien did. So I would say that in larger numbers the Vanya would win (one to the Eldar) and if it was One on One the Eldar would win also. I suppose in smaller numbers (Ring Wraiths and Rangers Vs Vayna anyone?) the outcome would be debatable. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

07-29-2002, 11:03 AM	#19
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Before I said that elves would win... but now I'm not so sure. I just read a letter by JRRT (at the start of my copy of the Silmarilion) and in it he says that the fleet of Numenor could (as in had a chance) of destroying Valinar. That is why the Valar appealed to Illuvatar for help (and thus the sinking of Numenor and the removal of Valinor from the world occurs). This made me think that I may have underestimated the strength of men at their peak.

07-29-2002, 12:11 PM	#20
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Location Victor Mountains Elves Desert Men Plains Toss-up River Side Elves Forest Elves Sea Toss-up Elves had the immense advantage of range (longbows), so an approaching army would be decimated if the Elves had a height advantage. On plains, it would be even, because the Men would reach the Elves by the time a third salvo got off. In the desert, the dunes would work to infantry's advantage. At sea, Men had more ships, but Elves had better ships. A river would prevent Men from closing to meléê , and the archers could pick them off one by one. Forest: think talans. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."