elves loving men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Merigrin · 05-26-2002, 04:00 PM

I was just wondering why when an elf marries a human it means that they become mortel, does this mean that they age or do they remain youthful and die after so long?

Joy · 05-26-2002, 05:02 PM

I can only find a couple of instances where a female Elf married a mortal man.

Beren and Lùthien - Lùthien could have remained immortal after she married Beren, yet becasue Beren went to the Halls of Mandos - died - and Lùthien pleaded for his life, she had the choice of immortality without Beren or mortality with him. Because of her love for him and her desire for him to live again, she gave up her immortality.
Tuor and Idril - She remained immortal and sailed into the west, along with Tuor.
Earendil (Half-Elven) and Elwing - Both remained immortal and sailed into the West
Aragorn and Arwen (3/4 Elven) - Arwen was Half-Elven, so she choose mortality to be with Aragorn. It was not that she married Aragorn, it was the fact the she was Half-Elven.

Hope this helps.

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

05-26-2002, 05:07 PM

Where does it say taht Arwen is half elven? Did i miss that somewhere? Can ya help me out?

Joy · 05-26-2002, 05:27 PM

Arwen is the Daughter of Elrond and Celebrian.

Celebrian is the Daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn of Lothlorien.

Elrond is the son of Earendil and Elwing.

Earendil is the son of Tuor and Idril, which was mentioned above.

Joy · 05-26-2002, 05:46 PM

Let me make a correction here. I would have done it in the previous post, but it might get a little confusing.

I stated that Earendil (Half-Elven) married Elwing (a female Elf). This is partly true, for Elwing was also Half-Elven. Elwing was the Daughter of Dior and Nimloth - an Elven maiden of Doriath.

Dior was the son of Beren and Lùthien, which I have mentioned above. Even though Lùthien renounced her immortality, her son would have to make that choice himself. Because she renouced it, didn't mean that Dior nor his heirs would have that right taken away.

Now, the question comes, what about Elros, the brother of Elrond? He chose mortality and it affected all his heirs, down through Aragorn.

Kidd2323 · 05-27-2002, 12:35 AM

I thought only Elrond and Elros were given the immediate choice of whether to be man or elf. If, Joy, as you say like Arwen, the offspring were given the choice, then the Numenorian kings who wished for and even warred for eternal life would have had no beef with the Valar. They would have been able to make their own choice. This was not the case, however. Elros's choice chose the Numenorian path.

I think because of Arwen's choice to love a man she was forced or even mandated by the law of the Valar that she must give up her immortality. I cannot give specific evidence to this fact, but didn't all the elf maidens who married men give up their spirit to Mandos as the price for their love?

Elrian · 05-27-2002, 12:54 AM

Quote:

I think because of Arwen's choice to love a man she was forced or even mandated by the law of the Valar that she must give up her immortality.

When Elrond made the choice, he was told his children would also have a choice, to sail into the west with him or to remain and become Mortal.
Earendil and Elwing were the first to be given the choice between Eldar or Edain.

Lalaith · 01-14-2003, 03:45 PM

Does anyone know of any instances of romances the other way around - that is, mortal women and elf men? I have come across none in my reading but I wondered if any of you that had read the Letters might have found discussions of this possibility...

Carrûn · 01-14-2003, 04:25 PM

Lalaith I've found no stories or hints of them where a mortal women marries an elf man. With the exception of course of the hundreds of Legolas fan fiction stories [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img].

Legolas · 01-14-2003, 07:32 PM

Lalaith - No, there are no cases like that.

Lalaith · 01-15-2003, 04:05 AM

Thanks guys. I just wondered if Tolkien had ever mentioned it...

Quote:

With the exception of course of the hundreds of Legolas fan fiction stories

Good God. I can just imagine. Lol.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-15-2003, 04:12 AM

Aegnor, son of Finarfin, loved Andreth, the great aunt of Beren, and she loved him back, but the duties of war stopped them from marrying.

Lalaith · 01-15-2003, 07:56 AM

That's interesting...where does that appear?

Child of the 7th Age · 01-15-2003, 08:34 AM

Look in the History of Middle-earth vol. 10, entitled Morgoth's Ring, which contains a chapter called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (the Debate or Converse between Finrod and Andreth) where reference is made to the mortal woman loving Finrod's brother Aegnor.

It is a poignant tale, filled with sadness and even some bitterness on Andreth's part. Their conversation gets into many questions about the nature of Man and Elf, the possible meaning of the Gift of Eru, and how that differs from Elvish immortality. The two even discuss the possibility that Eru himself may someday come within Arda to help begin the healing process.

Written near the end of Tolkien's life, this piece gets into questions that aren' mentioned anywhere else. These were the type of philosophical speculations that Christopher comments on as being "out of sync" with what came before in Tolkien's writings. Personally, however, I find them fascinating!

Lalaith · 01-15-2003, 08:36 AM

Thank you very much!
I've only read Sil, LT, and UT, HoME sounds like a new challenge...

05-26-2002, 04:00 PM	#1
Merigrin Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2002 Location: England Posts: 23	elves loving men I was just wondering why when an elf marries a human it means that they become mortel, does this mean that they age or do they remain youthful and die after so long? __________________ "Master Merry's being squeezed in a crack!" Sam, FotR "Ai! ai!" wailed Legolas. "A balrog! A balrog is come!" FotR "Did he say: "Hullo, Pippin! This is a pleasent surprise!"? No, indeed! He said:"Get up, you tom-fool of a Took!" Pippin, TTT.

05-26-2002, 05:02 PM	#2
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	I can only find a couple of instances where a female Elf married a mortal man. Beren and Lùthien - Lùthien could have remained immortal after she married Beren, yet becasue Beren went to the Halls of Mandos - died - and Lùthien pleaded for his life, she had the choice of immortality without Beren or mortality with him. Because of her love for him and her desire for him to live again, she gave up her immortality. Tuor and Idril - She remained immortal and sailed into the west, along with Tuor. Earendil (Half-Elven) and Elwing - Both remained immortal and sailed into the West Aragorn and Arwen (3/4 Elven) - Arwen was Half-Elven, so she choose mortality to be with Aragorn. It was not that she married Aragorn, it was the fact the she was Half-Elven. Hope this helps. [ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ] __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-26-2002, 05:27 PM	#4
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Arwen is the Daughter of Elrond and Celebrian. Celebrian is the Daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn of Lothlorien. Elrond is the son of Earendil and Elwing. Earendil is the son of Tuor and Idril, which was mentioned above. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-26-2002, 05:46 PM	#5
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Let me make a correction here. I would have done it in the previous post, but it might get a little confusing. I stated that Earendil (Half-Elven) married Elwing (a female Elf). This is partly true, for Elwing was also Half-Elven. Elwing was the Daughter of Dior and Nimloth - an Elven maiden of Doriath. Dior was the son of Beren and Lùthien, which I have mentioned above. Even though Lùthien renounced her immortality, her son would have to make that choice himself. Because she renouced it, didn't mean that Dior nor his heirs would have that right taken away. Now, the question comes, what about Elros, the brother of Elrond? He chose mortality and it affected all his heirs, down through Aragorn. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-27-2002, 12:35 AM	#6
Kidd2323 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 44	I thought only Elrond and Elros were given the immediate choice of whether to be man or elf. If, Joy, as you say like Arwen, the offspring were given the choice, then the Numenorian kings who wished for and even warred for eternal life would have had no beef with the Valar. They would have been able to make their own choice. This was not the case, however. Elros's choice chose the Numenorian path. I think because of Arwen's choice to love a man she was forced or even mandated by the law of the Valar that she must give up her immortality. I cannot give specific evidence to this fact, but didn't all the elf maidens who married men give up their spirit to Mandos as the price for their love? __________________ "I wish I could go all the way with you to Rivendell, Mr. Frodo, and see Mr. Bilbo," said Sam. "And yet the only place I really want to be in is here. I am that torn in two." "Poor Sam! It will feel like that, I am afraid. " said Frodo. "But you will be healed. You were meant to be solid and whole, and you will be."

05-26-2002, 05:07 PM	#3
Mordalion Guest Posts: n/a	Where does it say taht Arwen is half elven? Did i miss that somewhere? Can ya help me out?

01-14-2003, 03:45 PM	#8
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Does anyone know of any instances of romances the other way around - that is, mortal women and elf men? I have come across none in my reading but I wondered if any of you that had read the Letters might have found discussions of this possibility... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-14-2003, 04:25 PM	#9
Carrûn Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Behind you, counting to 3 Posts: 234	Lalaith I've found no stories or hints of them where a mortal women marries an elf man. With the exception of course of the hundreds of Legolas fan fiction stories [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. __________________ "Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

01-14-2003, 07:32 PM	#10
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Lalaith - No, there are no cases like that. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-15-2003, 04:12 AM	#12
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Aegnor, son of Finarfin, loved Andreth, the great aunt of Beren, and she loved him back, but the duties of war stopped them from marrying. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-15-2003, 07:56 AM	#13
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	That's interesting...where does that appear? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-15-2003, 08:34 AM	#14
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Look in the History of Middle-earth vol. 10, entitled Morgoth's Ring, which contains a chapter called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (the Debate or Converse between Finrod and Andreth) where reference is made to the mortal woman loving Finrod's brother Aegnor. It is a poignant tale, filled with sadness and even some bitterness on Andreth's part. Their conversation gets into many questions about the nature of Man and Elf, the possible meaning of the Gift of Eru, and how that differs from Elvish immortality. The two even discuss the possibility that Eru himself may someday come within Arda to help begin the healing process. Written near the end of Tolkien's life, this piece gets into questions that aren' mentioned anywhere else. These were the type of philosophical speculations that Christopher comments on as being "out of sync" with what came before in Tolkien's writings. Personally, however, I find them fascinating! __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-15-2003, 08:36 AM	#15
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Thank you very much! I've only read Sil, LT, and UT, HoME sounds like a new challenge... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling