Drownded

[Frodo Baggins]

Do you think my parents died because the boat sank, (maybe it had a leak)or did Primula push Drogo in and he pull her in??
Personally, I don'd hold with the last explanation. Maybe I'm just a naive fool and refuse to believe they could do that to each other.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Nufaciel]

The book never really says, but personally, I think that either there was something wrong with the boat and it sank, or they fell in by accident (small boats can be unstable).

[Tarthang]

Nufacial is right, the book doesn't give any particulars, on how they came to drown. Maybe one of them stood up, lost their balance, thereby capsizing the boat. Or perhaps Drogo lost the oar, leaned way over the gunwhale (gunwale?) and capsizing the boat in the process. I could probably come up with another good five scenario's capsizing the boat alone, if you're familiar with a small boat in anyway, then you'll get the idea.

[Kuruharan]

Or an especially violent sneeze?
Can't happen you say?
Rather embarassing to be the only person I know who has capsized a boat with a sneeze. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

I too refuse to believe that Primula and Drogo would push each other in! There was probably something wrong with the boat, and as the good ol' Gaffer says,
"Boats are quite tricky enough for those that sit still without looking further for the cause of trouble."

[Kalimac]

Personally I wouldn't take anything that Ted Sandyman says too seriously, but anyway...

Drogo might have "caused" the accident, but surely it was inadvertantly. He was a Baggins and probably not used to being out on the water; maybe he fell in and ended up dragging Primula in by struggling when she tried to pull him out. Or something like that. Urgh, this is a little morbid.

[Tarthang]

Maybe there wasn't any struggling at all, except to say for a little friendly tickling or wrestling.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I really don't think there was any serious bad play here. Smeagol was the only Hobbit I know of who intentionally did in another Hobbit. I don't think Frodo's parents would fall in that category. Probably just inexperience with boats and water or being too silly and then finding themselves above their heads (literally). sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Nevtalathiel]

Rather embarassing to be the only person I know who has capsized a boat with a sneeze.

ROTFL [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I think it was all a conspiracy by the Sackville-Bagginses who thought that they would be left a collection of silver spoons in the will. they probably filled the boat up with sneezing powder!

[Daniel Telcontar]

Nevtalathiel, you are probably right! We must alarm the Shiresheriff at once, and get those pesky little hobbit wannabes arrested like the murders they are!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

But the shiriffs could be in on the plot, usign the feathers in their hats to tickle people and make them laugh so hard they capsize their boats! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Daniel Telcontar]

This case goes deeper than we thought!
if even the sheriff is invovled, we need to talk with the Mayor! We have to get justice!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

I think it may all be inspired by Tom Bombadil! If his singing didn't make you laugh, then his outfit surely would!

[Frodo Baggins]

You have a good point with the violent sneeze hypoyhesis. Father certainly was a very loud and forceful sneezer. And when He blew his nose.... everyon covered their ears. I really did'nt thind Ted Sandman was true...but, one has to wonder

[Birdland]

I've heard two theories myself:

Drogo dropped his sandwich, leaned over to get it, and...PLOP!

Or:

Drogo hadn't had quite enough to eat for Second Breakfast, and couldn't resist when he saw that fish. "Fisssshhhhssss. Yessss. Is it tasty? Is it crunchable?"...PLOP!

[Frodo Baggins]

Ohhh Birdland!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

those are funny, dropped is sandwich haha
Fisssssshhh haha!

[Nevtalathiel]

Alternatively, Drogo could have leaned over to kiss his beautiful wife while on such a romantic baot ride and just leaned a little far, how tragic [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Samwise]

But the shiriffs could be in on the plot, usign the feathers in their hats to tickle people and make them laugh so hard they capsize their boats!

*shivers* Ticklin'? Oooh--remind me not to get to near one of them shirriffs...

[alatar]

Why were Frodo's parents removed? Was this essential to getting him to be Bilbo's heir, and subsequently to be the Ringbearer? Didn't Gandalf say something about Frodo was "meant" to bear the Ring, and that some other power was behind it? Would this same power be then responsible for killing Frodo's parents?

When Gollum tips over the edge, some see Eru's hand. Would not we also see Eru's hand when Drogo and Primula are tipped as well?

Note that the post-holiday/pre-holiday season has me in a less-than-charitable mood.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

When Gollum tips over the edge, some see Eru's hand. Would not we also see Eru's hand when Drogo and Primula are tipped as well?

He does seem to have a penchant for drowning people.....

[Mithalwen]

Yes and even elves aren't "waterproof" - they may be able to walk on snow but he draws the line at water

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

He does seem to have a penchant for drowning people.....

Gandalf is placed in the right place at the right time so that he might meet Thorin, who then gets Bilbo out of his hole and into contact with Gollum, who loses the Ring to Bilbo. Bilbo returns and adopts Frodo, which he could not of had Frodo's parents lived.

Could this 'anti-Ring' force have used another hobbit, or was there something special about Frodo? The text seems to indicate that Frodo is special - more elvish - and so was it necessary that his parents die to make Frodo a better RingBearer?

[Sir Kohran]

Whilst we're on the matter, do you think Tolkien intended some sort of parallel between Smeagol and Deagol finding the Ring whilst out in a boat, and Frodo's parents drowning in a boat accident?

[The Might]

Well there is some truth in that theory alatar, as if I remember correctly Gandalf does say something like: not many except you would have made it so far. Not sure where, not going to look for it.
But I doubt that Eru would go so far so as to do any other changes other then pushing Gollum in.
Indeed I have already had many discussions about luck, fate and providence in M-e and I although it seems to be more then just a coincidence I personally can't believe that Eru would "play" in such a way with the inhabitants of Arda.
What god of love would kill two innocent hobbits, no matter for what purpose. And would Tolkien as a believing Catholic write such a thing? I doubt he ever intended such a thing, however it could be seen as just a chance event as all others. But then again we can go further back in past and maybe speculate that the sparing of Elros and Elrond was also planned by Eru, as no Elros and Elrond meant no Aragorn and Arwen and Fellowship and succesful Quest.
This problem is unfortunately not easy to solve...

[Farael]

Ah, but are we not looking at it from the wrong angle?

Wouldn't losing his parents at such an early age make Frodo different from other hobbits, and perhaps more suitable for the bearing of the Ring?

Being orphaned at a young age would make him feel less "attached" to The Shire, being adopted by Bilbo even more so. Being orphaned would probably make him more resilient as well, less prone to asking others to solve his problems and more likely to take matters in his own hands.

Therefore, I'd say that it's not that Frodo was special and so Eru drowned his parents as part of a divine (if convoluted) plan, but rather that this accident, which is nothing more than that, an accident, ultimately made him uniquely able to bear the ring.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Farael

Being orphaned would probably make him more resilient as well, less prone to asking others to solve his problems and more likely to take matters in his own hands.

I don't think it can be generalized that an orphan is more apt to deal with life problems. I believe quite the contrary to be the case.

[The Might]

I am not sure if it was the Frodo that left Bag End that was so special...I rather think it was the way the trip and the difficulties encountered changes him that made him so special.
If on Weathertop he could do nothing to stop the Ringwraiths, Tolkien comments in a letter that had he put on the Ring in Sammath Naur the Wraiths wouldn't have hurt him due to his power.
In my opinion it is this transformation that he suffers that plays the greatest role.

On the other hand, I must admit that a certain innate liking for adventures and great deeds that was in the family (Bilbo) also was necessary.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by The Might

If on Weathertop he could do nothing to stop the Ringwraiths, Tolkien comments in a letter that had he put on the Ring in Sammath Naur the Wraiths wouldn't have hurt him due to his power

True, but only as long as it took them to remove him from the Crack:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear ... He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.