The Elven change in character

[Mithadan]

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We are first introduced to Elves in the Hobbit as they sing (tra la la lally) and tease Thorin and company (don't dip your beard in the water, as Thorin struggles to negotiate a narrow bridge; hmmm what does this say about the very narrow Bridge at Khazad Dum) as they descend into Rivendell. The next morning they awaken Bilbo with a serenade of nonsense below his window in Elrond's house. They seem so silly.

Can these be the same Elves we see in LoTR and the Silmarillion? Can the seemingly ridiculous Elves shown in the Hobbit be reconciled with the deep, sad yet powerful Elves appearing in other writings by Tolkien without simply saying that the Hobbit was a children's story and the others were not? JRRT was a very careful writer. When he wrote the Hobbit, he had already written portions of the Silmarillion and the later story was drawn into the history created by the earlier. Can the behavior of the Rivendell Elves be explained?

700 posts! Watch out Kittle!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Aldaron]

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Re: The Elven change in character

This is a really difficult question. The evidence that Tolkien had already written parts of the Silmarillion make it even more difficult. Easy enough to say that it was a children's book, but as you point out, Tolkien was a very careful writer. That said, he may have been very careful to make The Hobbit a children's book. I've written some things for children and it's not easy. One is cautioned to not write down for children, but it also can't be as adult as some other book might be. Because of this Tolkien may have used the elves at times as a bit of comic relief. I've got to give this some more thought. For instance, is there a change in the character of Gandalf between The Hobbit and LotR? I hope that there is more discussion of this point. It's a most interesting question.


</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: The Elven change in character

When JRRT first wrote 'The Hobbit' it was not intended to be part of his 'Silmarillion' mythology (he borrowed some names but it was not the same world). After writing LotR he rewrote a little bit of 'The Hobbit' to bring it more into line with LotR and the legendarium. It also seems that he wanted to do a more major rewrite but did not get that chance. One can always look at 'The Hobbit' as written by Bilbo and told in the manner of a Hobbit children's story. Even then note that there is a slight change in the presentation of the Elves at the beginning and at the end of the book (there is also a noticible difference between the Elves in LotR and in the Silmarillion). It is disappointing that JRRT never did rewrite the Hobbit and bring it fully in line with the legendarium.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: The Elven change in character

I had a similar thought about goblins/orcs. Can anyone imagine the orcs of LotR -- Shagrat, for example -- singing &quot;Down to Goblin town you go my lad&quot;, as the goblins do in The Hobbit? I think The Hobbit is deliberately a less serious book, at least in parts.

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: The Elven change in character

Yeah, Tar-Elenion is right. I thought that it was mostly common knowledge on this board. Cause I asked a similar question before and that seemed to be the answer. A lot of things in The Hobbit don't really fit in with the other books.

Plus the Hobbit was a childrens book and Silm definately isn't.


It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Aldaron]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Elven change in character

And yet we tell everyone to start with The Hobbit before going on to LotR. And we would all be poorer without it. And certainly we would suggest LotR before tackling The Silmarillion.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: The Elven change in character

This reminds me of a thread I posted to a long time ago, on the other side of the Misty Mountains...

Quite frankly, I am not only shocked, I am offended that some of you people are even entertaining such a discussion! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

We know very well that Bilbo set down part of the accounts, and Frodo another, and Sam perhaps even set his hand to some matters.

It is to Tolkien's credit that he set it down as meticulously as he did, and did not try to shape the histories with a simplistic sameness in its treatment of various subjects. That would be revisionism.

The Red Book of Westmarch, and other such lore as has come down to us, should be considered as a histories compiled by different hobbits at different times. Different witnesses will have different views. Frodo was a more serious hobbit than Bilbo, Sam more down to earth than either of them.

Furthermore, there are Elves and then there are Elves! Some have &quot;younger&quot; temperaments. Elrond seems much the same from what we call THE HOBBIT to THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Some younger elves may well be inclined to tease one another and new visitors and especially dwarves in their merriment. (What if you were a teenager for 2000 years?)

To expect all elves to be the same is like expecting all Americans to like the same kind of music.

Try reading Tra La La Lally to a RAP BEAT! (It actually works!) We're obviously just talking about young Gangsta Elves out on the byways of Rivendell.

So please, don't load the table with unreasonable expectations of unchanging continuity. Enjoy the plate that is set before you! History is not so orderly.

Sheeeesh!

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Orald]

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Re: The Elven change in character

Good answer Gilthalion. They are different accounts. Bilbo was obviously a little bias towards elves in the beginning.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[lindil]

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Gangsta Elves and Osanwe Kenta

HTML Comments are not allowed

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/7/01 9:02:25 am

[red]

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Re: Gangsta Elves

Rivendell Elves = Rivendelves. Get with it, lindil! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

-réd (aka Silivren Rivendelf)

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Gangsta Elves

There certainly is a &quot;Bilbo wrote it and his style was less historical and more fanciful&quot; argument here. That cannot be denied. There is also the &quot;Elves tease dwarves&quot; or &quot;Elves disapprove of dwarves&quot; element. In fact, Elves to a certain extent, look down upon both younger races. Thus one comments that sheep look different from other sheep and mortals are not &quot;our&quot; study, &quot;we&quot; have other affairs.

While reading Gilthalion's fanfic, another inspiration came to me. Rivendell is, to an extent, a hidden enclave of the Elves. Its general whereabouts is known, but its specific location and entrances are not. It is a guarded realm, not unlike Nargothrond. Note that Thorin's company does not actually see the Elves until they choose to reveal themselves. Like as not, most carried bows or other weapons and if the company were orcs or evil men rather than friends, the reception would have been very different. Even an uninvited and unwanted guest would firmly be escorted away. But because the company was made up of friends, their progress was monitored and the Elves could not resist some teasing of members of the &quot;lesser&quot; races (embellished by Bilbo's fanciful hand). Thus the nonsense rhymes, etc. Also remember that the time was far less evil than 60 some years later when Frodo arrived.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

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rgggh

what is up w/ the HTML comments are not allowed ?
I couldn't HTML my way out of a paperbag this is the 2nd post I have had cast into the void for some technical weirdness. Ahhh the joys of 6.0!!!
anyone have a clue as to what is up?
I assume it has something to do w/ using italics and quote's.

lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Falmar]

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Re: The Elven change in character

The only thing I can think to add is that the Elves Bilbo met in Mirkwood did not behave at all like the Elves in Rivendell. Also Thranduil seemed similar in temperment to Celeborn. I tend to agree that the Rivendell Elves were just poking light fun at the Dwarves.


</p>

[lindil]

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elves

Greetings and welcome to the downs Falmar .

I think w/ the majority of occasions in the Legendarium we see elves in ways thhat are not universal to their culture ;
1- At war or in crisis [glorfindel ]
2- Rulers mostly talking w/ other important figures [gandalf ,Aragorn]
3 - At formal feasts

so we really only see them cutting loose so to speak in Mirkwood when the Cheif Guard and Butler should have been working and again in the hobbit at rivendell teasing the Dwarves.Beren meeting Luthien also comes to mind.

We don't [unfortunately] get to go inside elvish hearts and minds while they are cleaning house or raising children, or most of the things that cultures do in ways that once you are on the inside becomes invisible to you.

so the episode on the bridge [keep in mind that the nonsense is in translation - and JRRT was not nearly at the height of his skills re: such things] prob reflects an echo of the event more than 'memorex' .

I find fascinating the references that seem to indicate that they knew what the Dwarves were up to.
I doubt gandalf would have spoken to anyone save Elrond , Glorfindel and other tight lippeed nobles about it.
So I suspect Osanwe-Kenta as the text indeed alludes to.
[I know I posted this before - but it was cast into the void]
Best question we have had in a long time.

btw --another good glimpse of Elvish merrymaking is in Smith of Wooten Major where smith finally makes into the heart of the realm ofElvendom and dances with the Queen.
[and in the person of Alf we do get to see a bit and Elven Chef! wouldn't waste a bee'sknee of butter ]


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Hmmm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Rivendell Elves = Rivendelves&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Or to put it with more sophistication, Imladhrim Elves. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

-Sûldal ~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=- </p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Hmmm

While rereading portions of the Silmarillion, I came across a reference in the Darkening of Valinor chapter to the Teleri declining to attend the Festival of the first fruits at Manwe's halls because they &quot;recked&quot; little of the changing of seasons, festivals and the activities of the Valar choosing instead to sing by the sea. Perhaps the Teleri/Sindar were simply less serious than their Noldorin brethren and more susceptible to singing nonsense songs and poking fun at &quot;mortals&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Aldaron]

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Re: Teleri singing by the sea

Were not the Teleri a sea people living on the west coast? So they would have had little to do with crops and harvest. They would acknowledge the seasons, no doubt, but planting, cultivating and harvesting wouldn't have been in their culture.

</p>

[Bêthberry]

Do you suppose The Hobbit elves knew Tom Bombadil by any chance?

[littlemanpoet]

Whoa, Bêthberry! You've been digging!

This thread seems to partake of some of the same information as "what breaks the enchantment", with regard to Elves. So, is it that Sindarin Elves are less serious than Noldor and Vanyar? Or is it that Elves can frolic on the surface while keeping a very grief stricken interior below the surface? Hmmm...... I might take a guess, but I'll wait....

As to Tom Bombadil (why oh why did you have to bring that conundrum into this discussion? ), who knows? Probably. Elves seemed to be aware of him, eh?

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

So, is it that Sindarin Elves are less serious than Noldor and Vanyar? Or is it that Elves can frolic on the surface while keeping a very grief stricken interior below the surface? Hmmm...... I might take a guess, but I'll wait....

Aren't the Elves of Rivendell Noldor?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Aren't the Elves of Rivendell Noldor?

Noldorin and Sindarin, I believe.

If I'm correct, in the Post-First Age eras, the Noldorin and Sindarin tended to be found together. There wasn't much segregation anymore.

And they had been pretty well-mixed in Mithrim, Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc, well before then anyway.

So while the individual elf might say "I am Sindar" or "I am Noldor", my understanding is that the populations as whole were mixed for the most part.

[Anguirel]

Actually, many would have been Laiquendi and Nandor too, I think. I can see them frolicing about.

However, part of me likes the idea that it was the anonymous Elladan and Elrohir singing...just as it was the anonymous Legolas getting drunk with Gelion the butler...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Do you suppose The Hobbit elves knew Tom Bombadil by any chance?

They should. Who wouldn't hear all that singing?

[Lalwendë]

There seem to be two bits of a thread going on here.

Thread part one - about the behaviour of the Elves. I think there could be any number of explanations as to the differences between the Elves in the Hobbit and the Elves in LotR (and indeed, they are different again in The Sil).

Within the structure of the story there is the translator conceit explanation; it is quite possible that the Elves of The Hobbit are different as the one who wrote the tale was different.

The timeframe of both tales is different too. TH is set at an earlier date, before the finding of the Ring, and presumably before the Nazgul are as active as they are in LotR, going about Middle Earth and terrifying the populace - and making Elves feel far less frivolous.

We meet different Elves in each book. Elrond is the one constant who seems much the same in both books. In LotR we tend to meet Elves higher up in the social order, and hence more burdened with serious issues. And by this stage burdened also with the immensity of the news that the One is found and being carried about Middle Earth, and that Sauron is building his army.

Maybe the differences could be accounted for by the different types of Elf. Galadriel is one of the Eldar, while those in The Hobbit are Silvan Elves, of the Nandor. Of course, Legolas is one of these and he is not overly given to frivolity, but he could be much better travelled than his father, maybe he is more aware of the wider world and how its concerns have an impact on his kin. The Elves of Mirkwood are quite hostile to outsiders and would probably not be keen on travelling far and mixing with others, but Legolas seems to act as his father's messenger, either through his father not wishing to leave Mirkwood or being forced to stay and defend it.

Thread part two - Elrond knows about Bombadil, and the Ents must also know about him if they know about the Old Forest. Tom is the 'oldest' of all, so there is a high likelihood that he has met the Elves, and probably shared a few songs with them. Maybe they made him his boots?

[The Saucepan Man]

I don't see a problem here. Descriptions of a given individual or group of individuals can vary widely depending upon what they are doing at the time and who is doing the describing,as well as a range of other factors.

If three different people each sat down to write their impressions of the Saucepan Man, one when he was in the pub with his mates, another when he was at work and a third when he was playing with his children, I am sure that they would come up with some quite different and possibly contrasting descriptions.

[Kitanna]

When I first read The Hobbit my impression of the elves was that they were crazy pixies (or something of the like) hiding in the forest. Then with LOTR that all changed. It was Lalwendë who made the point that the elves could be more happy and carefree because there wasn't really much of a threat hanging over them. It goes the same for people, at one point in their life they can have fun and be carefree when some time later they are serious, then they can go back to being carefree later on.
So though the elves are happy-go-lucky and teasing of the dwarves in The Hobbit they, like many people, put that attitude away when something serious happens and it needs fixing.

[Formendacil]

It's a matter of protagonist as much as anything else, I think. Bilbo vs. Frodo. And no, I am not talking about the translator conceit.

In The Hobbit, we follow Bilbo. We follow his adventures and his tales. As such, the Elves that we see are the ones that are most likely to make contact with him. In general, those are the happier, more carefree ones. Remember, Bilbo is just a hobbit burglar, a curiosity in which silly elflings, and not great elf-lords, would be likely to place an interest in. In addition, Bilbo's own preference for Elven company seems to lean more to the "tril-lil-lil-lalliers" than to the Glorfindel bunch.

In the Lord of the Rings, by way of contrast, our protagonist carries the greatest trinket in middle-earth. What he does will decide history for millennia. Quite naturally, as we follow his journey, we are going to see quite a few more serious elf-lords than we will dancing elflings. In addition, Frodo's character is such that he gravitates more to the solemn and wise than Bilbo did. (Even in his old age, Bilbo keeps the company of Lindir and such, as well as more rogueish sorts like the Dunadan).