Radagast's ultimate fate

[Alfirin]

This is more a thread for speculation that textual citation but may prove interesting.

What in your opinion ultimately happened to Radagast in the post LOTR ages. One one hand he technically failed in the mission assigned to him in the Undying lands, failed as much as Saruman did. However he seems to have been treadted far more kindly and tenderly than Saruman was (since he shows no desire to dominate it, just to more or less become a part of it), there seems to be no textual evidence that Gandalf ever did anything forceful to him, as say, casting him out of the order as well (If he has the authority to do this to Saruman he almost certainly had the authority to do so to Radagas, who if you count thing fully hierarchical he very likey outranked even before his death and ressurection) or forcing him to return to the Undying Lands to face his fate there (since the forth age is in many ways an age of Men, there might be issues with any Maia still being around in it (Bombadil doesn't really count in this case, its pretty obvios he has his own set of rules). Basically Gandalf seems content to simply leave Radagast to his own devices, basically free to do as he wishes in ME in the post Ganadalf era. While Tolkein never says so, I amost like to think that this is interntional on Gandalf's part, that before setting sail for the west (during the "hidden period between Gandalf leaving the fellowship at Bree and showing up again at the Grey Havens) in addition to talking to Bombadil, he sougt Radagas out one last time for a final conversation with him as well. Maybe as the new "head" of the order and Eru's special envoy, he was allowed to offer Radagast absoution for his failure and and opportunity to returnt to the west as well, one Radagast declined. Maybe he actually gave Radagast a new mission, to sort of stand as the last watcher of ME, not to influence events as Gandalf and Saruman has done, but just to keep an eye on things. If Tolkein really had told the truth and ME was our own world long, long ago, I sort of Image that, in one sense or another, Radagast may still be out there.

[Inziladun]

I seem to remember another recent thread that touched on this, but a quick search yielded negative results.

I think the fact that Radagast is not seen taking ship with Gandalf at the Havens is significant. It was an indication that he had totally forgotten his reasons for being in Middle-earth. R. certainly did "fail", in that he is said to have lost his focus and forgotten about being part of the resistance to Sauron, or at the least had apparently become very passive in the mission of the Istari, only doing things that were specifically asked of him by Gandalf and the White Council.
Gandalf says repeatedly that the Third Age was "his" age, and that he was the "enemy of Sauron". Since the Istari were all in the same boat, so to speak, as far as their ultimate purpose for being in Middle-earth, I would think that none of them had any business remaining behind after Sauron's fall. Staying in in the mortal lands was dangerous, for themselves and ME's less powerful denizens. There would, I think, be too much of a tendency to abuse their powers, especially after Gandalf's leaving.
I rather think Radagast, and the Blues Brothers as well were ultimately "depowered" and their bodies (which were mortal) taken away from them by their superiors. The alternative, leaving such uniquely powerful beings to their own devices after their "official" assignment was over, would seem to be a needless risk.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I rather think Radagast, and the Blues Brothers as well were ultimately "depowered" and their bodies (which were mortal) taken away from them by their superiors. The alternative, leaving such uniquely powerful beings to their own devices after their "official" assignment was over, would seem to be a needless risk.

As logical as this is... it really doesn't feel to me like the way Middle-earth operates. Part of the problem for me is that the Valar never tied up dangerous, enemy loose ends, let alone possibly harmless good-guy ones. Sauron... never captured when Melkor was, after the awakening of the Elves. Same with the Balrogs. Sauron, a Balrog, and dragons--and who knows what else--were left all over Middle-earth after the War of Wrath.

Quite apart from the way the Valar operate, it doesn't feel like the way Tolkien operated. Middle-earth is littered with "left-overs." That's part of its wonderful charm. Swords from Gondolin cropping up in troll-holds, the One Ring turning up in Gollum's lair, Palantíri rediscovered in Gondorian towers, descendants of Manwë's eagles still living in the Misty Mountains....

To me it seems much more in keeping with Tolkien's mentality if we think of Radagast "going native" like the Huorns--shepherd becoming like sheep. Like the strain of Elves and Maiar entering the Mannish race and ennobling it, perhaps we should think of Radagast "going wild," bringing a little bit of faerie to the woods and wilds of 4th Age (and later ages) Middle-earth.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I seem to remember another recent thread that touched on this, but a quick search yielded negative results.

I suppose you mean this one.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf says repeatedly that the Third Age was "his" age, and that he was the "enemy of Sauron". Since the Istari were all in the same boat, so to speak, as far as their ultimate purpose for being in Middle-earth, I would think that none of them had any business remaining behind after Sauron's fall. Staying in in the mortal lands was dangerous, for themselves and ME's less powerful denizens. There would, I think, be too much of a tendency to abuse their powers, especially after Gandalf's leaving.
I rather think Radagast, and the Blues Brothers as well were ultimately "depowered" and their bodies (which were mortal) taken away from them by their superiors. The alternative, leaving such uniquely powerful beings to their own devices after their "official" assignment was over, would seem to be a needless risk.

Hm, I don't know, that seems a somewhat drastic measure to me. Maybe for Jake and Elwood, in the version of their story where they became corrupted and started secret magic cults rather than working against Sauron from within his territory in the South and East - but even then, I guess the Valar could have left it to Men to deal with them somehow; after all Sauron himself had been overcome mainly by mortals (with a little help from Gandalf and the Elves, and maybe one or two nudges of divine providence), and I don't think either of them were in Sauron's class.

As for Radagast, I could imagine that since he had forgotten about his original mission, as you say, the Valar decided to forget about him in turn and leave him where he was, if he was content to remain there. I don't see him becoming much of a danger to anybody - I mean, he hadn't been taking enough interest in the affairs of Men to interfere with them for a long time, and that wasn't likely to change significantly in the foreseeable future, rather the contrary (except maybe if they threatened his beloved animals). morm expressed it very well in that other thread I linked to:

Originally Posted by mormegil

Radagast, in my opinion, would become more mortal like in his apathy, he wouldn't cross the ocean to Valinor as he is dwindling and dimishing in his knowledge and prior greatness. I think he would remain in Middle-earth a mere shadow of what he became continually tending to his micro-environment without concerning himself with the goings on of the world around him. He wouldn't die but wouldn't grow.

Who knows, maybe he ended up as the archetype of all the spirits of the wood that haunt European folk mythology, something remotely like our German Rübezahl or I don't know what would be the English equivalent - a guardian of nature, generally benign but with a bit of a trickster personality and a nasty temper if you cut down trees or shoot deer too deep in the forest.


EDIT: x-ed with Form, who seems to be thinking in a similar direction in the last paragraph.

[Boromir88]

I'm going to have to go digging through the sources, but I think there are clear differences between Gandalf's success in the Istari mission, and the others' failures.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the 3 unknowns (Radagast, Alatar and Pallando) failed in the manner that Saruman did. None of them failed like Saruman who actually accepted Sauron's (his supposed Enemy) goals as the right path. Then again, did the 3 unknowns succeed in the way that Gandalf did? No. Still, I would separated their failing from Saruman's failing.

There are very late writings, which were unfinished and you can take from them what you wish. Like I said, I'll try to dig them up. Basically, in some very late writings Tolkien said that the Blue Wizards were vital in the resistance against Sauron in the East. They were sent in almost a special mission to go East and keep down the numbers of Men who would join Sauron's army. And they were indeed successful in this, and without the Blue Wizards efforts in the East, the armies of Gondor, Rohan, and the "resistance" led by Gandalf would have failed as Sauron's armies would have swelled and straight out over-whelmed them.

There are also some less than kind writings about Radagast, who basically became lazy. He was a "good" person, by aiding Gandalf a few times, but with regards to his mission became lazy. And in truth, Gandalf actually knew more about birds and nature than Radagast, which was supposed to be Radagast's "specialty."

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I've always felt that Saruman would have had him eliminated

[Alcuin]

The purpose of the Istari was (UT, “The Istari”)

to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

…the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) [the Istari] yearned exceedingly. …

…Radagast …. became enamored of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name … “tender of beasts”…

It wasn’t that Radagast was evil or malicious. Gandalf called him “the honest Radagast” in the Council of Elrond, and reiterated his trust in his integrity, pointing out that it was because of Radagast that Gwaihir the Windlord came to Orthanc, found Gandalf Saruman’s captive, and rescued him. Gandalf successfully used Radagast as a reference in his initial encounter with Beorn.

Radagast simply lost focus on his mission. He was sent to Middle-earth by Yavanna because Aulë sent Saruman. (This part of the legendarium smacks of the kind of jealousy seen in Greek myth between Zeus and Hera, for instance.)

I think that means that Radagast must have remained in Middle-earth until well into the Fourth Age. I don’t believe he still yearned exceedingly for the Blessed Realm, and being a Maia, he would not die of natural causes. The Men of the Vales of Anduin should have had some recourse to him for that time, as well as the Kings of Gondor and Rohan, if they thought to seek him out. Because of his relationship to Yavanna, one wonders why he was not an obvious ally of Treebeard and the Ents; but perhaps he was, and Tolkien did not inform us of it, or else it is not published. (There is a hint in Treebeard’s conversation with Merry and Pippin that he know might know more wizards than just Gandalf and Saruman, so it is quite possible that he knew Radagast, too.)

I think I met Radagast many years ago in Berkley, California. He was running a Ben & Jerry’s, wore Birkenstocks, had a staff, and was followed around by a couple of deer and lots of birds and furry critters.

[Rumil]

I wonder, should he have decided/been allowed to stay in Middle Earth, if he joined or helped Celeborn's new elvish realm of the Greenwood in the Fourth Age?

I imagine that Dol Guldur and the environs needed 'cleaning up' after Sauron's defeat, perhaps R aided in some way. Rhosgobel was just by the eaves of Mirkwood so at least technically Radagast might come under the area that Celeborn ruled.

I'd like to think that Radagast was forgiven for his failings, for he had never turned to evil per se, unlike Saruman. Maybe he elected to stay in ME, eventually becoming a Bombadil-ish anomaly, or hitched a lift with Gimli and Legolas on the last ship?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Radagast simply lost focus on his mission. He was sent to Middle-earth by Yavanna because Aulë sent Saruman. (This part of the legendarium smacks of the kind of jealousy seen in Greek myth between Zeus and Hera, for instance.)]

Actually that brings up a interesting point. It suddenly occurs to me that another reason R. might wish to stay was on the possibility that the blue wizards were still alive (as Saruman, and R. himself demonstrate in the case of wizards "failed in mission" does not automatically translate to "dead") and he had to stay as a counterbalnce. Alatar and Pallando were after all, sent by Orome and so might be a little too fond of hunting (all of the other Istari seem to show proclivites remiscent of the Valar that chose them, so the blues presumably do as well). Maybe dawn of the forth age Radagast was a little worried that, shoud Alatar and Pallando return from the East (If their role truly had been to forment resistance against Sauron in the East, with Sauron gone, they might have wandered more freely) and that ME needed him around to play Lorax.



I think I met Radagast many years ago in Berkley, California. He was running a Ben & Jerry’s, wore Birkenstocks, had a staff, and was followed around by a couple of deer and lots of birds and furry critters.

[/QUOTE]

It may be, though personally Ive always though of Radagast as looking quite a bit younger (the Ishtari were only supposed to age through the rigors of their labors. Since R. seems to have gone native pretty quicky, and his native live seems (at least until the very end), largely stress free, I imagine he aged less than Gandalf or Saruman. I tend to think of him has having Gandalf's build more or less, tall and slender but with hair and bear that are still largely brown (The image I keep getting is basically somwhere between Ron Moody's Fagin in a pointy hat and Kirby's version of Rincewing plus ten years)

As for Saruman possibly planning to eliminate R. had he come to power, I think this is almost certain. To me, at least the litany Saruman accused Gandalf of wanting were things that Saruman himself desired; had he suceeded in his desires he no doubt would have wished to take Barad-Dur's keys (along with Barad-Dur itself likey) and the crowns of kings. Taking all of the wizards rods, making himself the one and only wizard; holder of all power, would likey sit high on his list. He did desire all five staffs, in fact (If you belive some of the possible fragments about what happened to the blue wizards) he may have already had three of them, as he technically already had one crown, Isildur's original one (mentioned at the end of "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in the UT)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think I met Radagast many years ago in Berkley, California. He was running a Ben & Jerry’s, wore Birkenstocks, had a staff, and was followed around by a couple of deer and lots of birds and furry critters.

Ah, I needed a good laugh!

My personal opinion has always been that Radagast, in focusing too strongly on the flora and fauna of Middle-earth that he so loved, lost sight of his mission to aid and guide the people in the resistance against Sauron, and just plain forgot who and what he truly was, and where he came from. Not evil or malicious in his failing, but failed nonetheless. I believe he remained in Middle-earth either until something happened to kill his human body, or until he finally did something that jogged his memory.

Somewhat facetiously — but not entirely — I once postulated that Radagast was Merlin, who, after helping put Arthur on the right path, was "lured" away by "Nimue," another Maia who was sent to finally bring him home, having at last fulfilled his original mission to help the beleaguered residents of Middle-earth (another member of the board on which I first postulated this was kind enough to write a charming little piece of fan fiction about the event). In an odd way, it makes sense, partly because of the ambiguity about Merlin's origins and fate in the many variations of the Arthur legend, and partly because it would place a small connection between Tolkien's invented British mythology and Britain's most prominent legend.

[Pitchwife]

Radagast as Merlin? That's not such a weird idea at all - especially if you consider the original Merlin we meet in the Black Book of Carmarthen, Myrddin Wyllt, the mad hermit of the Caledonian woods who addressed his prophecies to pigs and apple-trees and appeared at his ex-wife's second wedding riding on a stag. Quite a Radagastly figure.

[Rumil]

And did he turn up later as St Francis of Assisi?

Hmm, who's he now then- David Attenborough?

[doug*platypus]

In the spirit of speculation rather than textual citation, I would hazard a guess that Radagast remained in Middle Earth out of choice after the fall of Sauron, so enamoured was he of the beasts and birds in Mirkwood and around. Whether he actually did help out in the rehabilitation of Mirkwood after it's rebranding as Greenwood the Great is a matter for even more speculation, but I think it's highly possible that without Gandalf and Saruman around to guide his actions, he just did his own thing. He seems to play the part of the disengaged employee in modern terms. As mormegil put it so well in the other thread:

The comparision [sic] between Radagast and Sauruman is equivalent to the difference between a sin of omission and a sin of commission.

Radagast was a failure not because of his actions as Saruman was, but because of his inactions. Not that he was no help at all, it's just that as far as using his abilities to their fullest, he was no Gandalf to put it mildly.

I imagine that eventually over the years, Radagast, Maia though he was, faded as did those of the Firstborn who remained in Middle Earth through the ushering in of the Dominion of Men... what was it, dwindling to a rustic folk of wood and dell. It is possible that eventually when his body faded, which I believe it would do as he was sent to Middle Earth in the form of an old man with the other Istari, with the sole purpose of fighting the good fight against Sauron, that he was able to seek admission back to the Undying Lands. Would his enquiring spirit be swept away as Saruman's was, though? I cannot say. But I think he would stand a better chance of forgiveness and acceptance.

[Boromir88]

Going back to my first post I found the references to the different histories of the Blue wizards I mentioned.

In Letter 211 it seems like Tolkien thought they had a special mission to go east but failed (only in a different manner) like Saruman and Radagast.

"I really do not know anything clearly about the other two- since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions., East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to ’enemy- occcupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed , as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and ’magic ’ tradiitons that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

This is where the idea that they started their own "cults." However, Tolkien was rather uncomfortable with the cult-practice part of religion in his stories. I think that's where we see a change, and in Home XII: Last Writings it's a completely different history. The Blue wizards actually arrive in the Second Age (when according to LOTR the Istari didn't come until the Third Age). Anyway, Alatar and Pallando were specially sent to the East in the Second Age and crucial in minimizing Sauron's swelling army.

"But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East. They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have outnumbered the West."

[Galin]

But even this late note might not be Tolkien's last word on the subject. A more legible version appears on the other side of this text, and I compare what's noted in both. When two Istari come in the Second Age and have a measure of success:

'They must have had very great influence in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have outnumbered the West.'

In the text on the reverse side of this, the Maiar (all five are referred to before the section I quote here) all appear to come at the same time (a crucial moment) -- and at a time when the resistance of the West was greatly outnumbered.

'Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South.'

Again who knows which followed the other, but at least (I think) this arguably casts a measure of doubt upon the idea that the other two had this measure of success.

I tend to go with the version that best agrees with The Lord of the Rings...

... or at least is also more legible

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

...the Maiar (all five are referred to before the section I quote here) all appear to come at the same time (a crucial moment) -- and at a time when the resistance of the West was greatly outnumbered.

This quote has never bothered me before, but it suddenly does now.

I can see why the Valar would seek to strengthen the resolve of the Elves of the West, but why would it matter that they were outnumbered by other Elves? Surely the Elves of the East and South were not evil!

But the Men of the East and South were under the sway of Sauron, they vastly outnumbered the Men of the West (Dúnedain), and this indeed made a “crucial” difference in whether or not Sauron could seize control of Middle-earth in the Third Age, with or without the Ruling Ring.

[Galin]

I almost checked another copy of Unfinished Tales when I posted that Alcuin

Is it correct? if so I assume the phrasing is a bit loose, and the intended meaning is maybe that the resistance of the Elves of the West is outnumbered by the 'forces' of the East and South -- which can be gleaned from my section of the post before the quote, but that's how I take the meaning.

That said, I agree it does seem to say other Elves (again, if I copied it correctly) but why draw that comparison?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

I almost checked another copy of Unfinished Tales when I posted that Alcuin

Is it correct? if so I assume the phrasing is a bit loose, and the intended meaning is maybe that the resistance of the Elves of the West is outnumbered by the 'forces' of the East and South -- which can be gleaned from my section of the post before the quote, but that's how I take the meaning.

That said, I agree it does seem to say other Elves (again, if I copied it correctly) but why draw that comparison?

My copy of Unfinished Tales for this passage reads a little differently. I have underlined the part that seems to have been elided:

Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South.

That seems to me to make more sense.

[Galin]

Yes it certainly does, and I should have checked another edition. I checked my own source and I did copy it correctly at least, from a paperback edition of Unfinished Tales published by Del Rey (Random House).

Oh well: compare the now provided complete quote (to the other late one concerning the success of the 'other two') and my point remains the same.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Even as I still contend that Radagast was a loose end, and Saruman took care of loose ends, it should be remembered even as Saruman had become very wicked and corrupted, that was more or less only a very late Third-Age development.

For most of the Third Age, all five of the Istari were probably quite engaged and effective at doing fulfilling their mission for the better part of two thousand years! That's a very long time, and they were as such "men," somewhat unconsciously containing a Maian spirit. In part because of their work, the Third Age dragged on as it did, and in a sense, their having lost their way and strayed may have been unavoidable.

Saruman's fall is, of course, extremely sad and deplorable, but it is more that of a man, not unlike Denethor, than that of a fallen angel.

That Gandalf remained so focused and true speaks to both the type of Maiar he had been, and the personage who he became in Middle-Earth, as well as the Elven ring he wore.

On another note, even as the Easterlings and Southrons were ultimately more numerous, we are often seeing things through the eyes of Denethor, for which Sauron strategically distorted the view, while Denethor found tactical advantages. Arming, marshaling and maintaining those human nations under his control was no mean feat for a ring-less Sauron, taking thousands of years of long-term work, and presumably it was far from universal. Had the West remained better united during the Third Age, and not picked apart so well for such long periods by the Witch-King, Necromancer, the Balrog, Orc strongholds, and recurrent warfare and growing enmity among men, the West could have remained entirely defensible. Even before the end of the War of the Rings, Sauron had been essentially checked (per chess), and Gondor was inherently very strong, but not robustly organized under Stewards compared to what was possible. So, the decisions of the Council of Elrond and on down were not so much acts of desperation, but really rather wise, sacrificial decisions to rid Middle-Earth of great evil once and for all.

Again, with the The Hobbit on through, we see the final elimination of the remaining parts of Morgoth's direct legacies, because of the ring bearers and the Line of Luthien.