Lotr fans...ready on...help? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-30-2002, 10:56 PM

I've been a fan of J.R.R Tolkien, specifically the lord of the rings for awhile now, and was quite excited when my college english teacher has us doing research on the books. I need some outside advise or opinions on these ones: What is the archetype or allegory (I know that Tolkien claims there are no allegories in LOTR, but assume that there is) attached to the fellowship of the ring, more specifically to the recent movie. And what are the first 3 beginnings of the film, since the books are full of new beginnings, claimed by my professor. If you have any thing to say, speak up. I would love to hear from you. Thanks.

Mayla Took · 02-02-2002, 04:17 PM

Well, I hope I am not to late, but I also did a college paper on Tolkiens works. My professor wanted me to compare some aspect of the books to "real life." Here are some of the aspects that I compared;
The racial discrimination that was taking place in Middle Earth between the Elves and the Dwarfs. Which my be compared to some racial issues today.
The fight between "good and evil." Such as the fight between Sauron and the rest of the free world of Middle Earth may be compaired to the current fight againts terrorism.
The message that he portrays that no matter how heavy a burden is, either emotionally or physically, that one must carry it through until the very end. Such as Frodo did with the Ring and that one must be careful when taking on a bruden if it can't be avoided.
I hope that helps!

littlemanpoet · 02-06-2002, 06:39 PM

Archetype and allegory are different things. You're probably aware of Tolkien's distinction between allegory and application, which works out that there is no allegory in LOTR, but there are many applications, such as both world wars, the nuclear arms race, racism, the creation and maintenance of free societies, and so on.

Archetype, on the other hand, is a psychological concept worked out most vigorously, I believe, by Carl Jung. The most important archetypes are: the hero, the shadow, the anima, the animus, and the old man. There are others. In LOTR the hero is seen in Aragorn and Frodo, the shadow (the same-gender alter-ego to the hero) is seen in Gollum, the anima (the feminine counterpart to the hero) is seen in Galadriel, especially at her Mirror (she is the light anima whereas Shelob is the dark anima), and the old man is obviously Gandalf. That's only a start. There are many other archtypes, and the characters in LOTR are not limited to how they portray these archetypes. Myth and fantasy do more with archetypes than modern novel-type fiction.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

HerenIstarion · 02-09-2002, 05:11 AM

Quote:

the shadow (the same-gender alter-ego to the hero) is seen in Gollum,

well, I doubt the shadow in Gollum to be so obvious. He is struggling personality, balancing somehow on the point between shadow and light. Mark Sam asking him, does he (Gollum) want to be hero or villain? JRRT makes his characters somehow free to choose their own niche.

littlemanpoet · 02-09-2002, 08:29 AM

I think, Herenistarion, you may not quite have a handle on what an archetype is. I agree with everything you said about Gollum as a struggling personality. Nevertheless, from a Jungian point of view, Gollum's character functions as THE DARK ALTER-EGO TO THE HERO. As such, that makes him the primary Shadow figure for Frodo, especially in TTT and ROTK. It might be argued that Sauron is himself THE Shadow under the archtypal definition, but it would be more accurate to say that he is alter ego to the Kings of Numenor, which would therefore be Aragorn. This makes it especially interesting that Tolkien shows Aragorn using the Palantir to announce himself as THE challenger of Sauron.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-09-2002, 01:34 PM

For a very interesting essay on LotR and Jungian archetypes, look at: www.crosscurrents.org/tolkien.htm
It's not easy to read at first, but gives a fascinating view of the psychological side of Tolkien's book. I'm looking forward to checking those ideas out at my next rereading of LotR - soon, probably!

01-30-2002, 10:56 PM	#1
elong Guest Posts: n/a	Lotr fans...ready on...help? I've been a fan of J.R.R Tolkien, specifically the lord of the rings for awhile now, and was quite excited when my college english teacher has us doing research on the books. I need some outside advise or opinions on these ones: What is the archetype or allegory (I know that Tolkien claims there are no allegories in LOTR, but assume that there is) attached to the fellowship of the ring, more specifically to the recent movie. And what are the first 3 beginnings of the film, since the books are full of new beginnings, claimed by my professor. If you have any thing to say, speak up. I would love to hear from you. Thanks.

02-02-2002, 04:17 PM	#2
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	Well, I hope I am not to late, but I also did a college paper on Tolkiens works. My professor wanted me to compare some aspect of the books to "real life." Here are some of the aspects that I compared; The racial discrimination that was taking place in Middle Earth between the Elves and the Dwarfs. Which my be compared to some racial issues today. The fight between "good and evil." Such as the fight between Sauron and the rest of the free world of Middle Earth may be compaired to the current fight againts terrorism. The message that he portrays that no matter how heavy a burden is, either emotionally or physically, that one must carry it through until the very end. Such as Frodo did with the Ring and that one must be careful when taking on a bruden if it can't be avoided. I hope that helps! __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

02-09-2002, 01:34 PM	#6
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	For a very interesting essay on LotR and Jungian archetypes, look at: www.crosscurrents.org/tolkien.htm It's not easy to read at first, but gives a fascinating view of the psychological side of Tolkien's book. I'm looking forward to checking those ideas out at my next rereading of LotR - soon, probably! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-06-2002, 06:39 PM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Archetype and allegory are different things. You're probably aware of Tolkien's distinction between allegory and application, which works out that there is no allegory in LOTR, but there are many applications, such as both world wars, the nuclear arms race, racism, the creation and maintenance of free societies, and so on. Archetype, on the other hand, is a psychological concept worked out most vigorously, I believe, by Carl Jung. The most important archetypes are: the hero, the shadow, the anima, the animus, and the old man. There are others. In LOTR the hero is seen in Aragorn and Frodo, the shadow (the same-gender alter-ego to the hero) is seen in Gollum, the anima (the feminine counterpart to the hero) is seen in Galadriel, especially at her Mirror (she is the light anima whereas Shelob is the dark anima), and the old man is obviously Gandalf. That's only a start. There are many other archtypes, and the characters in LOTR are not limited to how they portray these archetypes. Myth and fantasy do more with archetypes than modern novel-type fiction. [ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

02-09-2002, 08:29 AM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I think, Herenistarion, you may not quite have a handle on what an archetype is. I agree with everything you said about Gollum as a struggling personality. Nevertheless, from a Jungian point of view, Gollum's character functions as THE DARK ALTER-EGO TO THE HERO. As such, that makes him the primary Shadow figure for Frodo, especially in TTT and ROTK. It might be argued that Sauron is himself THE Shadow under the archtypal definition, but it would be more accurate to say that he is alter ego to the Kings of Numenor, which would therefore be Aragorn. This makes it especially interesting that Tolkien shows Aragorn using the Palantir to announce himself as THE challenger of Sauron. [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]