Lord of the Rings - English Icon

[Lalwendë]

I've been looking at a new website which aims to list English Icons, and what's more, you can vote to say whether something is an English Icon or not. The list includes the usual suspects such as Stonehenge, Cups of Tea, psychopathic drivers of white vans (not really... ) etc. Of course I had to check if the list included Lord of the Rings, and it does!

And you can vote for it too, if you so wish!

Here's the website: Icons of England . I've kindly linked to the LOTR page.

So, what do we think? Is Lord of the Rings a truly English Icon?

Here's my thread from a while back asking if Tolkien really did write England's Mythology

[Bêthberry]

The Shire possibly would make it as an English icon--all that green and pleasant land stuff. And I suppose those sturdy, stalworth hobbits. If there were white cliffs somewhere, even just at The Havens, I would say definitely.

As for the entire LotR or the Legendarium, well, that could well be in the eyes of the beholder. There are too many places that don't necessarily shout out "skeptic isle", such as Rivendell, Lothlorien, Minas Tirith, Dale. The theme is too universal and the convergence of all the various actions speaks to something broader than one nation. Thankfully I never get the sense that Frodo fought them on the beaches, fought them on the etc, and never surrendered. LotR is broader than simply England--all those nods to the northern mythologies lifts it above national iconography.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Only and Englishperson (who is so immersed in the place that he or she cannot 'see' it from within a different context) or someone who knows absolutely nothing about England could ever doubt the iconic status of Tolkien and his works as English with an extra-large capital E.

Bb's already pointed out the Shire but even more telling than that would be:

Social Relations: how people relate to one another and how they think about the place of the individual in society: English through and through, until you get to problematic figures like Boromir who is far more American -- a cowboy, really, with all that lone gun bravado stuff; rugged individualism.

Language: my goodness, but when you have moments of naturalistic language (i.e. not the 'high talk' of courtly or epic moments that everyone is prone to in the story, save Sam) it's like listening to my family from Sussex!

History: or, rather, the attitude toward it. The sense of a glorious past, the best parts of which must be preserved against decay. A wonderful openness to innovation and change, but a guarded one. Compare that to a more New World attitude to history: when anyone over here even knows it, we tend to regard it as dead and not nearly as important as the future.

Food: would a Frenchman have described the meals of M-E the way we have them? The imagination balks: lembaguette? cram with cranberry sauce? Bottled hare with taters-frites?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I would say that, even though Tolkien originally wrote it as an English mythology, it has so many elements that are applicable to everyone, really. Tolkien was, of course, adamant about the applicability of his book, so it was (one could argue) appropriate for anyone interested in a good story.
I would still class it an English icon, really. I find it hard to imagine any of the characters with anything but an English (or at least British) accent of some kind. Especially Gandalf. As Bêthberry has said, the Shire is very much alike to the rural England in which Tolkien grew up in and loved, and gives it a greater English feel.
What is more, it follows the stereotypically English home comforts; a comfortable home, a bright garden, toast in the morning, and, of course, a good pipe. The idea of the smallest people struggling on in the face of dire odds is an international ideology (I think), yet triumph over adversity is always a well-loved tale in merry old England.
I'm not saying The Lord of the Rings is not meant for any other country, but I think it can fit as an English icon. Even more so than King Arthur (him being French, of course, ) ... (Not that there’s anything wrong with being French, of course )

[Lalwendë]

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Regardless of its international appeal, (even though its hard to ignore), I'd say that it still remains an English icon. Well, tea isn't just drunk in England, now is it? My older brother described Tolkien's writing style (especially in The Hobbit) as like an old Grandfather telling small children a tale at bed time. Personally, I think of this as a very English image (at least, with Tolkien with his pipe and tweed ).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

Got new for you Lal: to the rest of the world, Englishness is exotic. A wild idea, I know, but everyone in the world thinks of themselves and where they are as normal and everywhere else as exotic. We tend to disparage the normal (who wants to be normal) and value the exotic (oooooo, that's so wonderfully exotic). So to the rest of the world, the Englishness of LotR is something that we react to not with familiarity (those "absorbed English influences") but with the thrill of the unfamiliar.

For North American readers there's Elves, Dwarves, Dragons and Wizards alongside waistcoats, people who say "fiddlesticks", castles, and a monarchy -- we don't have any of those things over here!

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience?

Those living elsewhere in the world may eat a Full English Breakfast, drink a Pint of Warm Bitter or drive a Mini (though hopefully not all at the same time), and greatly enjoy the experience, but English icons they remain. So it is with The Lord of the Rings.

Definately an English icon in my view. I voted for it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

I remember posting some time back that I found it difficult to understand how non English readers related so strongly to LotR, because I personally found so essentially English & getting quite a negative response from some fans in other countries.

It was almost as if they felt that I was attempting to exclude them, say they didn't have a 'right' to Tolkien's work. Needless to say that wasn't the point I was making at all. It just seemed to me that the work was so English that it must seem a bit 'alien' to anyone who had not been born & brought up here.

Clearly that's not the case. Something Flieger said struck me, that the work, because its so essentially English actually becomes 'universal'. I think what she meant was that because Tolkien didn't attempt to produce some kind of 'mid-Atlantic' or pan-European work that tried to appeal to everybody, his work had a kind inner cultural 'unity' (no I'm not sure what I mean by that exactly - I'm struggling here) that makes it seem real. Its not inclusive, politically correct, struggling not to offend anyone so that it will appeal to a mass market (& inevitably appealing to no-one in particular as a result). Its a work with universal appeal precisely because its so English. Its the same with War & Peace, which speaks to all cultures precisely because it is so Russian. These kinds of works reveal our common humanity because they are so particularly of the culture which the author comes from. A work which attempts to be all things to all readers tends to be a confused mess, 'multi-cultural', 'politically correct' & with no real identity or sense of place.

Originally Posted by Bb

LotR is broader than simply England--all those nods to the northern mythologies lifts it above national iconography.

I suppose one could argue the same for the plays of Shakespeare, yet whose work is more typically English, because of, rather than in spite of, its multi-national/multi-cultural settings? The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You know, I think that it maybe an icon to the English who recognize the strong ties to their country, but to the rest of us, it is a darn good read, even if we haven't a clue that there is a country/culture that vaguely resembles M-E (or perhaps the Shire). Thus having said that, it would be hard for me to say it is an English icon, because it doesn't feel particularly English to me since I don't know what Englishness feels like. And neither does it feel particularly exotic, though on reflection, that statement is a strange one, and yet there you have it. It has just enough attachment to the language and values of the recent past make it familiar, despite the sometimes strange landscapes or inhabitants.

The long shot of it is that if you mention LotR, England doesn't immediately come to mind, whereas if you say 'cricket' or 'Trafalger Square' it does.

[Firefoot]

I have to second what Hilde says. If I look for ties, I can see them (mostly in the Hobbit), but if I think "LotR," I definitely don't think "England." Say Stonehenge or tea or cricket or Buckingham palace - those are what I would call English icons.

While LotR started out as a mythology for England, I think it has become almost too inter-cultural to be just an English icon. I'm not trying to downsize whatever influence it had on Tolkien, but for those of us who aren't experienced in Englishness, LotR does not speak to that. I can imagine little brooks and rolling hills and fields without picturing England; we have those here across the ocean, you know. They might be a bit different, and so my mental pictures of those places might be different than someone who lives in England, but understanding England is not essential to understanding LotR. On the other hand, LotR is certainly more English than, say, American, and if any country could claim iconology, it would be England. But in my opinion, an English icon should say "this is England" to more people than just English people, and I'm not sure that LotR does this.

Of course, if it came down between the miniskirt and LotR, hands down which would be the English icon... I had no idea miniskirts had anything to do with England.

until you get to problematic figures like Boromir who is far more American -- a cowboy, really, with all that lone gun bravado stuff; rugged individualism.

*Imagines Boromir in chaps and a cowboy hat...* Definitely never quite thought of it that way before.

[Aiwendil]

The degree to which LotR is associated with England will naturally vary with the reader. I first read LotR (or rather, had it read to me) when I was quite young - probably about six; at that time, naturally, it bore no connection whatsoever to England in my mind. Now it seems quintessentially English to me.

I suppose it has, in part, to do with how familiar one is with England and English society. I've never been to England, but I'm something of an Anglophile. I think that to someone who is familiar with English novels and television, hobbits (in their society, their manner of speech, their attitude, their homeland, and so on) simply ooze Englishness. But when I was very young, this fact was quite lost on me, simply because I had no experience of Englishness. As a matter of fact, thinking about it, it seems likely that what initially appealed to me about other English things was their similarity to Tolkien.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Aiwendil, that is an interesting point, and I think I must be disensitized to even noticing Englishness, (perhaps in the way you don't notice the hum of the refrigerator after awhile). I grew up fond of reading books by English authors, listening to English music and watching quite a bit of English television, though this wasn't intentional. I just found it more to my taste than what ever else was around.

It just seems that the increasingly global nature of these times tends to obscure the distinctions for me.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

Where to turn in a time like this? Why, of course to Gilbert and Sullivan.

He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral
with information historical, linquistical, and even saceral
He knows the kings of Numenor and quotes the stories mythical
From Sirion to Bagshot Hoo, in scenery quite spectactacle.

He’s very well acquainted with matters fantastical
He understands relations both the plain and the profundical
About theorems minstrel he’s teeming with a lot of views
With many dour and dreadful things about eucatastric news.

He’s very good at eternal and even short term fellness
He knows the entish names of creatures ficticious.
In short, in matters historical, linguistical and saceral
He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral.

etc. etc. ~~

[Thinlómien]

Yes, LotR is an English icon. The fact that I don't always necessarily think about England when LotR is mentioned is not enough to undo it. I don't always think about England when I drink tea, but I'd stil recognise it as an English icon.

LotR, like tea, is so internationally widespread that they don't belong only to England. However, it can still be an English icon. England is the place of origin, but it is not the only thing that defines LotR. We can't view LotR as a purely English thing, but we can't deny its place as an English icon either.

Tolkien's intention was to write a mythology for England. I think he succeeded. Various articles that claim LotR as "England's favourite book" (most people's favourite book or the book they consider the best). I think this strongly speaks for that Tolkien created a mythology and the English people accepted it.

That, if something, makes LotR an English icon.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Brilliant verse, Bethberry!

I think I should propose that Tolkien himself be considered the icon, like Shakespeare or Gillbert and Sullivan.

But perhaps the definition will help me out here.

i·con


1. a. An image; a representation.

b. A representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage,
traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.

2. An important and enduring symbol:

3. One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol.

4. A picture on a screen that represents a specific file, directory, window, option,
or program.

Ah well! I can see that I am stuck on definition 2 and I think we are aiming more at 1a.

Thinlómien, I am assuming that you are refering to afternoon tea?

I hope that I'm not coming across as wanting to deny LotR as an English icon, just having a brain that is stuck in definition 2 of the word icon, I don't see it as an immediately recognizable symbol though it may well be symbolic of the culture from which it sprang.

[davem]

What about the three piece suit (Jacket, trousers & waistcoat)? Would that be an 'English' icon. Probably most people would not think it was as it has now been adopted over most of the world, but originally it was 'English' dress. I suspect that as with the suit, LotR is not seen as particularly English by many readers from other countries because so many aspects of English culture & values have been absorbed into other cultures across the English-speaking world to such a degree that they are no longer recognisably English.

As Tolkien would have pointed out a language is not simply a neutral means of communicating information, but reflects a particular way of seeing, & thinking about, the world, a mentality & value system. If you don't think of LotR as particularly English that probably means that your cultural background is pretty 'English' anyway (whether you llke the idea or not!).

[Bêthberry]

Good show, Hilde at calling up just what icon means.

A visual element seems especially pertinent. And on that ground, I find it difficult to think of a specific book as an icon. A book's aesthetic effect lies in the imagination, formed by the act of reading, rather than in a specific object. A cup of tea is a specific image. The famous London telephone booths are a specific image. Elizabeth I may be said to have become an icon, which is fascinating given how many icons she herself employed in her famous portraits--standing on a map of the world, the orb, etc. Big Ben provides a visual image. Is that last picture of Tolkien, touching the pinus nigra, an icon?

But between an icon and an idol, now there may be more than a few qualitative differences. I sometimes think that Tolkien fans do verge towards idolatry. But I think you're on to something to suggest the man rather than the book.

A bit surprising that an English site would play so fast and loose with the clarity of the English language--now there you go! Another "icon" for England from one of the new world types.

[Lalwendë]

I don't think they are defining 'icon' so rigidly. They are looking for things which simply resonate with English identity. If cultural items such as Alice in Wonderland, Pride and Prejudice and the King James Bible have already been included, then why not Lord of the Rings?

Some of my strongest English Icons would be pieces of music, e.g. The Lark Ascending, Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Jerusalem and Jupiter from the Planet Suite. None of these could be said to be 'visual' in any way, but when I hear them I immediately think of England. One of these was not composed by an Englishman, but nevertheless it is thoroughly English. Likewise LOTR may resonate with people from other countries in their own way, and they may not see it as specifically English, but I see the whole work, not just the Hobbits and The Shire, as English.

[Mithalwen]

Holst was British - it is a classic quiz question ..so was Delius..... obviously some Germanic heritage (like the queen)but like Handel definitely wrote English music...

Actually - inspired by Formendacil's apologia in "of another World " I got a book out of the library on religion which said that Icons were "windows on heaven"..which is a rather nice definition.

K2 telephone boxes definitely - would anyone understand out there if I call them "Darling Doris"es?- but I think I would consign Stonehenge to Mordor...
It is close enough that you have to take foreign visitors there and they are always disappointed. It was different before - the first time I went you could go right up to the stones and even for someone like me who couldn't be less into the hippy dippy stuff I remember there was a certain spirit of place.... Last time I went I told American friend that there were other stones in the area - meaning Avebury/Amesbury . She said "I think there are some over there" "Actually, I think those are sheep....."

[Bêthberry]

An interesting side issue to this question is whether Peter Jackson's movie would/could be recognised as an English icon, or whether it is only Tolkien's book which can be.

Did Jackson take the 'English' out of the Legendarium? If so, how so?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

An interesting side issue to this question is whether Peter Jackson's movie would/could be recognised as an English icon, or whether it is only Tolkien's book which can be.

Did Jackson take the 'English' out of the Legendarium? If so, how so?

It didn't feel very 'English' to me. Particularly the Shire - the light was wrong for a start & it just felt too 'alien', not recognisable as the kind of place I've lived & walked.

The BBC Radio adaptation, on the other hand, seemed to get across the essential Englishness of the story perfectly.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

An interesting side issue to this question is whether Peter Jackson's movie would/could be recognised as an English icon, or whether it is only Tolkien's book which can be.

Did Jackson take the 'English' out of the Legendarium? If so, how so?

Good question. I think that The Shire was quite English, myself. But it reminded me more of a Yorkshire Dales village than the Midlands/Southern village I had in mind. In the film it was more the village of a people who are too busy farming to have much time to tend to gardens, whereas I had in mind the more lush, 'chocolate box' type village idyll; the Yorkshire Dales village can be quite a tough environment.

I also still think that the films took away some of the images I had of the Elven lands, Rohan and Gondor. Rohan I still see as the sweeping downs countryside, Gondor as Cornish (stony, airy) and Rivendell as a Lakes/Scottish (yes, I know, Scottish is most definitely NOT English, but the Lakes are! ) community nestled between fells/mountains. And further to that, I often see Lothlorien as like one of the unusual sub tropical gardens we get on the West Coast, dark with towering trees and lush plants.

It's interesting though, that Jackson chose to have his actors speak in different British accents?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Hilde

Thinlómien, I am assuming that you are refering to afternoon tea?

Yes. Sorry for not making it very clear.

Originally Posted by Bb

An interesting side issue to this question is whether Peter Jackson's movie would/could be recognised as an English icon, or whether it is only Tolkien's book which can be.

I'd say no. It isn't English. It isn't made in England. Most of the makers are not English. I don't think that an un-English thing could become an English icon only by being like English (which can be disputed). If I wrote a book, could it become an English icon?