Placebo effect and other theories

[Morsul the Dark]

THis thread is a mix of mirth and seriousness what made me puyt it in this area versus mirth is that in this thread i wish to discuss vairious theories i or anyone else may have with evidence from the books the theory may be silly but if it is supported with facts i think we can disscuss it seriously, ok let's start with my theory the title theory

Placebo Effect:

As I recall hobbits have the ability avoid being spotted by the Big Folk so is it not true Frodo and Bilbo's encounters with the invisibility aspect of the ring are could be nothing more than placebos?

After all Bombadil is not affected by the ring so is it possible he knew the ring was powerless,therefor not be affected by the placebo effect? This would also explain Sauron's almost daunting lack of care for the ring until the end. Is he a victem of his own trick is the ring really just a ring and nothing more?

*an add-on to this theory is it possible the ring is not sauron's source of power but rather the jewelry in the barrowdowns(recall Bombadil's knowing look at the ...medallion(i think it was))


Any thoughts
Any theories?

[obloquy]

Nope!

[Morsul the Dark]

ANy other thoughts that expand past one word?

[obloquy]

What's to expand? Why would the Ring's invisibility effect be a "placebo"?

Maybe the Dagger of Westernesse really wasn't special at all, and Tolkien was just lying to us. ANY THOUGHTS OR THEORIES???

Maybe Balrogs really weren't Maiar and they were only pretending, and Tolkien lied to us. ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS OR THEORIES???????

Maybe Gandalf was Russian and not a wizard at all; and maybe he wasn't carrying a staff, it was really just a billiards cue. ANYONE OUT THERE WANNA PROVIDE SOME DETAILED ANALYSES OF MY THEORIES???????????????????????????????

I repeat, Nope.

[Kath]

It's a hell of a theory Morsul but one thing I don't get is where you said Sauron had a disregard for the Ring. I was under the impression that he was seeking it pretty desperately and had been since he had discovered that it had been found.

Also, if the invisibility property of the Ring is merely a placebo effect are you then saying that the Ring had no powers? That there was no need for Sauron to get it back as it did not contain remnants of his former strength?

[Encaitare]

Nope.

More seriously, if it could make Isildur invisible then it could make Frodo and Bilbo and any other hobbit who put it on invisible.

And it was a brooch, not a medallion. It's not Sauron's source of power (besides the fact that the Ring was) because Tom wouldn't want anything to do with Sauron. He's not concerned by the Ring and wouldn't bring home an evil bit of jewelry to make his wife look pretty. After all, he says to Frodo "Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it."

The knowing look was probably because he's the Eldest, there before anything else, and therefore recognized it as the trinket of a beautiful but long-dead woman.

[EDIT] Remember, Morsul himself said it's meant to be kind of silly...

[Morsul the Dark]

Sauron has always had immense inherent power, and in the Third Age he still has immense inherent power. You could not write a character such as he is without making him as powerful and terrible as possible. But the One Ring did increase his power. As it was made to enhance his strength, and made up of his strength, then it would naturally contain his strength, even if it was not in his possession. But if he was already powerful to the degree of x, and the ring took this power up to the power of y, then looking at these statements, losing the ring would surely only still reduce his power to x? That seems feasible to me.

That is from the thread Sauron Diminished its an exerpt from a letter

In answer there a quopte somwehere stating Sauron suddenly began spending more effort building his army than searching

thats in response to kath thank you for your thoughts

Enca as well thank you for your thoughts and in response is it possible he wanted frodo to continue to believe the ring was all powerful ans is it possible tom and goldberry planned on guarding the brooch..

As I said and as enca pointed out silly theories
Yes I relize thi theory is flawed(strongly I may add) but It came to me at work and I figured Id share it)

The Scond theory I had was this if Entwives(this theory is more serious mind you) enjoy nice orderly things then isnt it possible to say ents are more hasty than entwives? so therefore it is possible entwives are not lost merely treeish? remember Treebeard thinks they are in the old forest by buckland maybe they are jut to treeish to be noticed?

oblo I do not take your ideas into consideration because you delivered them rudely

[Encaitare]

Enca as well thank you for your thoughts and in response is it possible he wanted frodo to continue to believe the ring was all powerful ans is it possible tom and goldberry planned on guarding the brooch..

Again, I don't think so:

"...He [Bombadil] is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our council."
"He would not have come," said Gandalf.
"Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?" asked Erestor. "It seems that he has a power even over the Ring."
"No, I should not put it so," said Gandalf. "Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring himself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a chnage of days, and he will not step beyond them."
"But within those bounds nothing seems to dismay him," said Erestor. "Wpi;d he not take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?"
"No," said Gandalf, "not willingly. He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough." [Italics mine]

A somewhat lengthy quote that's probably been referenced a thousand times before, but it still works to explain Tom's nature. Unless there is a very different side of Tom that we're not seeing, the fact stands that he's just completely disinterested in matters outside his neck of the woods. And perhaps the "bounds that he has set" don't only apply to the physical area, but also to bounds he's put on himself. Maybe he has more power than he's letting on, but just doesn't care to use it. I don't think he wanted to trick Frodo. Despite all the confusion he gives us trying to figure out who/what he is, he seems like a simple sort of being at heart, who just wants to go about singing and rhyming and gathering flowers. Not a bad life, I think.

so therefore it is possible entwives are not lost merely treeish?

That does strike me as possible. But Entwives also seemed like they had more of a drive or purpose when they were on their own. They were happy to tend the earth and do whatever Entwives do on their girls' nights out. The Ents, on the other hand, became somewhat lost without their female counterparts. It seems to me that the Ents would be more likely to become treeish because of that.

[Meneltarmacil]

Getting back to the original topic, I think that it would be hard for Bilbo, unaccustomed to sneaking around unseen, to have stayed completely undetected until he had jumped right over Gollum's head, as Gollum was probably a lot more familiar with his surroundings and was very well accustomed to seeing things in the dark. Also, the reactions from the Goblins (they saw him, then they didn't see him as soon as he put on the Ring) immediately afterward should make it clear that the Ring's powers were real and not just part of a "placebo effect" which only Bilbo would have experienced.

[Alcarillo]

Also, wouldn't Bilbo need to know that the Ring made him invisible before he put it on in order for this placebo effect to occur? Or maybe I just don't understand how it works.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Mirth (if that).

[Holbytlass]

By the very nature of a 'placebo effect', a person needs to know what something may be able to do for the mind-set to work ie: this pill will make a person sleepy, it's sugar and yet the person sleeps because of the mind-set that they will.

The people in The Prancing Pony did not know Frodo had the one ring, and I'm sure most didn't know it could make the wearer invisable, therefore, when Frodo disappeared it really happened because no one stated, 'Frodo has a ring that will make him invisible'.

[Morsul the Dark]

The Scond theory I had was this if Entwives(this theory is more serious mind you) enjoy nice orderly things then isnt it possible to say ents are more hasty than entwives? so therefore it is possible entwives are not lost merely treeish? remember Treebeard thinks they are in the old forest by buckland maybe they are jut to treeish to be noticed?

[Holbytlass]

Interesting theory, but the idea that because Entwives like things orderly and therefore tree-ish seems, well, odd.
I'm thinking on very general terms of gender stereotypes. How many females (big example, moms) who like things to be orderly just sit around? I know that to get something in order whether home, business or anything takes alot of time, effort and energy, so I don't see the Entwives as just standing around being tree-ish expecting the land to become ordered.
And in this instance, why do you think that Ents are hastier?

[Morsul the Dark]

excellent point ... I suppose this is my reasoning ents let things grow wild which I connected with them being wild and order being associated with solemn calm...Perhaps I lookked at this from the wrong angle... You are right to keep things orderly one would have to be more active....