Hurin the Wraith

[Kuruharan]

I was just rummaging through the back part of the barrow when I came across this old thread.

My current curisoity is over the nature of Morgoth's power over Hurin's life. If Morgoth had kept Hurin in that state for a much longer period of time, would Hurin eventually have turned into a wraith of some sort? Obviously, the spirit remaining in the body for an indefinite period of time would be unnatural. Would Hurin have eventually expired in spite of Morgoth's curse or would he have eventually wasted away until he became a Gollum-like creature or a wraith or wight of some kind?

[Saurreg]

I am under the impression that Hurin was released from bondage with his death. I also believe that the curse of Morgoth only extended to the affecting the life of the one being cursed and nothing more. The thought that Hurin might became a wraith never crossed my mind and I do not think it was possible under circumstances.

Hurin's fate was forcifully altered by the dark menace of Morgoth and as such his ka was afflicted by a force majeure; one of nature that was beyond Hurin's innate ability to resist. The nine ring wraiths on the other hand fell into temptation and accepted the power of the rings which was essentially infused by the essence of Sauron. With that I believe those beings' spiritual bodies were contaminated by the extented presence of Sauron who was then able to slowly influence their thoughts and feelings and ultimately control them - all because they had unwittingly allowed him influence over their very being through manipulated invitation (i.e the lesser ring of power). Over the ages, all things must change and I am under the opinion that the original bodies of the nine had withered away but so strong was the presence of Sauron within them that his power was able to sustain them and give them a supernatural consciousness and bound them to Middle-Earth. What was left of their spiritual body might have evolved/mutated beyond the original Ka form and have become an off-shot entity that is controlled and tied to the fate of the puppet-master itself. Which is incidently why I think the remaining eight perished as soon as the Ring; the source of Sauron's concentrated power was destroyed.

The key difference between Hurin and the wraiths were that the latter had his fate forcefully altered but he might not have broken down mentally and spiritually. The latters might not have accepted Sauron directly, but by wielding the lesser rings of power, they let their guard down, gave in to temptation and accepted the control of sauron indirectly.

[Kuruharan]

You have a good point about the nature of Morgoth's power over Hurin as opposed to Sauron's power over the Ringwraiths. However, this line is very difficult...

and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.

The Sil

This brings up the question of if Morgoth knew that Hurin's children would all be dead before the end of Hurin's own life. It has also occured to me that the reason why Morgoth let Hurin go is because Hurin was about to die anyway.

However, the above line does not cause nearly the problems as this one...

There he was bound by the power of Morgoth; and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again and set his power upon him, so that he could not move from that place, nor die, until Morgoth should release him.

The UT

There may be a reason why this line was not included in The Sil. CT may have seen the problem or JRRT before him and decided that Morgoth's curse needed a little rewriting.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A central problem with Morgoth's curse is its seeming interference with
a key aspect of Middle-earth, free will.

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music of the (Ainur?)? Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth? (More like reading a book as opposed to writing it).

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

A central problem with Morgoth's curse is its seeming interference with
a key aspect of Middle-earth, free will.

I am not sure where you are heading here. But everybody sentient being on ME would possess a certain degree of self-awareness and exercise free will. However when confronted by a force majeure that free will is easily suppressed.

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music of the (Ainur?)? Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth? (More like reading a book as opposed to writing it).

This comment is very similar in content to the discussion in this thread.

I nevertheless still submit that Hurin's fate was altered by the active intervention by Morgoth more than anything else. Though the same might have befell Huor if he was the one who survived instead of his brother.

[Kuruharan]

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music

It is a thought but I doubt it. The Children came after the part of the Music that the Ainur participated in. None of the Valar really understood the Children very well. If any of them clearly understood the fate of any of the Children I would think it would be Mandos rather than Morgoth.

Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth?

In spite of what I said above, I find this idea rather attractive. However, given what I said above I'm not sure how that would work.

I nevertheless still submit that Hurin's fate was altered by the active intervention by Morgoth more than anything else.

I'm inclined to agree. However, this gets back to the original problem. None of the Valar had the power to deny death to Men yet Sauron did it and I believe the implication is that Morgoth had the power to do so as well. Does this mean that the Valar had the technical ability to keep Men from dying to this world but their loyalty to Eru prevented them from exercising this power?