Of Aragorn as Thorongil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aragorn_the_Ranger · 06-05-2002, 04:30 AM

I would like to know more about the past of Aragorn’s life. Mainly the part when he served Ecthelion II, King of Gondor, father of Denethor II, under the name of Thorongil. I know that it took place between 2957-2980 T.A. I would also like to know more about when he served the King of Rohan, Thengel, but King Thengel died in 2980….was it in the war. I know that Aragorn once knew Eomund, Eomer’s father but I wish to know what war or wars the Rohirrim and Gondor fought in that Aragorn took place.I've checked the appendices though they only have little info..plz help. As some might know this is the basis of my story
Thankyou

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Aragorn_the_Ranger ]

littlemanpoet · 06-05-2002, 09:55 AM

I don't have ready answers for you, but the appendices in the back of Return of the King have all the answers that are available. If you cannot find it there, it may be best left to speculation and conjecture.

Saxony Tarn · 06-06-2002, 05:32 PM

in which case, Aragorn, you do like i'm doing with my project -- you scour the appendix, find points from which you can jump, and you speculate and conjecture like a maniac!

(i've made mention of Thorongil in mine, pure speculation of course, but it seemed to fit so i ruled it should stand... you're the author, and if Tolkein rises from his grave while you're working late one night on it, chances are he's probably coming to give you an idea, not a curse... B) )

s.t.

Aragorn_the_Ranger · 06-07-2002, 02:56 AM

lol....thanks Saxony Tarn.
I was wondering if it doesn't bother you, could I have a look at your story. If you don't it is perfectly fine by me.
I know how I get when telling ppl about my story.
Thanks anyway

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 06-07-2002, 06:25 AM

There are some fantastic Throngil fan fictions at FanFiction.net. So far, I don't think we have any in our own Fan Fiction section.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

Saxony Tarn · 06-07-2002, 01:41 PM

Hey -- Aragorn, thanks for volunteering (evil grin) actually, i could probably use a few test victims, i mean, readers! Also feel free to draft me in the same capacity if you like!

e-mail me & we can discuss it off-thread -- saxonytarn@aol.com

|_|) <-- but you'll probably need a good stiff drink!

Aragorn_the_Ranger · 06-08-2002, 03:29 AM

Hey thanks Sax.
Thanks Barrow-Wight I'll have a look at that site and when my story is finished (which may take a while...lol) I'll put it on this site.

Tirned Tinnu · 09-16-2002, 02:16 PM

Ho! I have noted the absence of any explanation in this thread! Certainly we can come up with a little information on the subject.
I do not have the dates, which some might think al-important. I trust those who do so will post them here.

As for his work with the Rohanish, it is unclear and the battles are mirkily described. He served well enough that he was learned in their language by the time he left. We know he readily and gently knew what to say to Eowyn, in TTT, and that I think, would have taken a lot of learning.
He gained a good reputation with them by the time he decided to move on.

What I DO know is that Aragorn served Denethor's father in Minas Tirith both on the battlefield and off. They were fast friends! Ecthelion often looked to him for council, and leaned upon him in dark times.
It was when Aragorn was separated from him, during a siege similar to that we can read in ROTK, that Aragorn lead a host to beat back a Host of Orcs and Evil Men at Umbar. During that time Ecthelion was also waging war far towards the mountains, trying to guard the passes that lead to the Pelenor Fields.

Alas to say, Ecthelion was wounded by a Nazgul blade, (yep, one of the other times the nazgul are mentioned as coming out to battle) and did not survive. Aragorn had (possibly) only heard of this upon his return, and when the host declared that he should step up and lead them, he declined.

One might argue that there is a wonderful dialog that was lost there, if Aragorn had returned before Ecthelion had died. Aragorn might have tried to save Ecthelion, and in his passing, Ecthelion might have asked (commanded) that Aragorn lead his people, until such a time as Denethor be trained fully to rule. But this was not so, and Denethor was old enough to take commend. Aragorn stepped down, for he was not known to be of noble blood; he could not make his claim, and might have had to defend himself against a bitter foe - which Denethor had proven himself to be. There was no love between Denethor and Throrongil (Aragorn) for Denethor saw Aragorn as a usurper, a possible block to the throne.

Aragorn left before anyone could stop him. They searched for him long, despite Denethor's orders. He fled to Loth Lorien, where he most probably needed time to heal and grieve for his friend Ecthelion. Galadriel took care of him, and so it was that he met Arwen in the forest, and they finally pledged their troth.
*sigh*
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 09-16-2002, 02:40 PM

I have some bad news. Somewhere in the bowels of HoME or possible the Letters, i have read that JRRT actually wrote a 'journeys of Aragorn' and Jorneys of gandalf' and ...

Lost them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, maybe if we all hope hard enough it will turn up at marquette or in someone's attic. I imagine he lent them as he often did.

don't ask me for a book/page source as I really don't recall. I read it a few years ago and it stuck sharply in my mind as a loss as sad [actually worse now that i think about it] as JRRT not finishing the Of Tuor'. best of luck to you fan-fictioners though.

Tirned Tinnu · 09-16-2002, 02:54 PM

AHHHHHHH!!! Lindil, you have stuck me to the heart! *wait..I feel faint* <<<THUDDDD>>>>
*weeps*
No, say it isn't so...oh, the agony!
[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
*edit:
Bah, I'm so stuck by it that I'm writing it. Eru help my hands to be strong! Let not the keyboard smite me.
I searched through every fiction, and there was one half hearted attempt of four short paragraphs by a fellow in January. I hope that I don't step on his toes by doing it over again, and in completion. There was none other in the fanfiction area. I should say to you - I am not fond of most fanfictions. they are badly written, poorly thought out, a rarely rewarding. I shall make every effort to make it a D*mn good read. I hope that you will all help me to critisize it and get it up to par... for what? I don't know. Eru help me if it's ever accepted a "canon". I shall see Tolkien spin in his grave, first.
Wish me luck!

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

Nar · 09-16-2002, 07:24 PM

Lost them! Lost them! Lindil, Lindil, you should have gone silently on and on right into geezerhood with lips stoicly still and this terrible secret locked in your breast, muttering 'they must never know ... I shall bear this burden alone ... ' Oh, never mind. 'Tis better to have known and lost than never to have known at all ... or something like that. That sounds exactly like him! I don't know, maybe that sort of 'papers fluttering everywhere' mind was necessary to construct something like the Silmarillion. We should take comfort in that.

Tirned Tinnu, thank you for the stirring tale! Pleasure to hear it retold so well. Saxony Tarn has a very enjoyable tale of Boromir with references to Boromir telling his little brother tales of Thorongil when they were both kids. I thought that was a great idea. I didn't realize that the situation with Faramir replicated Aragorn's loss of his friend as a young man ... except this time, he get there in time to save the kid. That must have seemed like a wonderful grace to him. I wonder if Ecthelion and his grandson resembled each other? Faramir seems to be strong in the Numenorean heritage, and Ecthelion was a noble man by all accounts ... excellent taste in friends and champions and so forth.

[Edit] Where did you get the material on Ecthelion's death, Tirned Tinnu? I was just checking spellings in Appendix A of RotK and it has Ecthelion alive when Thorongil leaves Gondor. Is this from an alternative text? Great story, anyway.

[Further Edit] Go to it, Tirned Tinnu! Write those stories! I'd love to read them!

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

Saxony Tarn · 09-17-2002, 02:19 PM

i ought to have you on retainer, Nar -- thanks for the free plug! (or have you read that far?)

come to think of it, i should probably draft more Aragorn experts into the beta pool at this point...

s.t.

**lindil** · 09-17-2002, 03:49 PM

Here is a bit of obscure aragorn lore that will possibly be of use to fan-fictioners.

The secret dwelling of the northern Dunedain was at the confluence of the Hoarwell and Loudwater and was called unofficially [I imagine] the hidden fastness.

It is reffered to in a small bit of paper from the manuscripts at Marquette university.

JRRT deduced it's location apparently form the coment regarding bree that there were no ther settlements of men w/ in X number of leauges.
Sorry again no source recalled for this but michael martinez confirmed it for me and apparently Elvish and RPG master David Salo was in on the find in some way.

So at least you know where Aragorn calls home other than Rivendell.

09-17-2002, 04:04 PM

I really don't have any other info for you. Sorry! Although I am writing a fanfic for Aragorn. It involves his wanderings in the east. Talk about speculation! There is hardly anything in the appendices about what he does and what Rhun is like. All I know is that the "stars are strange" and there are wild kine (aka cows) there. Woohoo, that is a lot to go by! LOL Oh well, makes it a lot more fun.

Long Live Elessar Telcontar!

Tirned Tinnu · 09-17-2002, 04:37 PM

Woo, I remember reading somewhere of the "Hidden Fastness" but never knew where it lay. Thank you, Lindil, for that nugget of info. Interesting that they chose the area south of Rivendell, where Elrond's poers probably reached due to his command of the river. Makes sense to me! It affords a quick escape route to the south and the sea, if need be.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

**lindil** · 09-17-2002, 05:22 PM

strategically it does make sense.

Although it is quiet a haul to bree or the shire! I wonder wether it was a previous rhudaurian settlement or fortress?

Tirned Tinnu · 09-17-2002, 05:35 PM

Actually, I thought that it originally referred to a Dwarven enclave. But that's just from memory, and mine is a bit rusty!

06-05-2002, 04:30 AM	#1
Aragorn_the_Ranger Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 70	Of Aragorn as Thorongil I would like to know more about the past of Aragorn’s life. Mainly the part when he served Ecthelion II, King of Gondor, father of Denethor II, under the name of Thorongil. I know that it took place between 2957-2980 T.A. I would also like to know more about when he served the King of Rohan, Thengel, but King Thengel died in 2980….was it in the war. I know that Aragorn once knew Eomund, Eomer’s father but I wish to know what war or wars the Rohirrim and Gondor fought in that Aragorn took place.I've checked the appendices though they only have little info..plz help. As some might know this is the basis of my story Thankyou [ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Aragorn_the_Ranger ]

06-06-2002, 05:32 PM	#3
Saxony Tarn Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: a western shore Posts: 132	in which case, Aragorn, you do like i'm doing with my project -- you scour the appendix, find points from which you can jump, and you speculate and conjecture like a maniac! (i've made mention of Thorongil in mine, pure speculation of course, but it seemed to fit so i ruled it should stand... you're the author, and if Tolkein rises from his grave while you're working late one night on it, chances are he's probably coming to give you an idea, not a curse... B) ) s.t. __________________ <-- who, me? Take the Ring? Betray the Fellowship?? Nah -- couldn't be ME, i'm too cute...

06-07-2002, 06:25 AM	#5
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	There are some fantastic Throngil fan fictions at FanFiction.net. So far, I don't think we have any in our own Fan Fiction section. [ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ] __________________ The Barrow-Wight

06-07-2002, 01:41 PM	#6
Saxony Tarn Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: a western shore Posts: 132	Hey -- Aragorn, thanks for volunteering (evil grin) actually, i could probably use a few test victims, i mean, readers! Also feel free to draft me in the same capacity if you like! e-mail me & we can discuss it off-thread -- saxonytarn@aol.com \|_\|) <-- but you'll probably need a good stiff drink! __________________ <-- who, me? Take the Ring? Betray the Fellowship?? Nah -- couldn't be ME, i'm too cute...

09-16-2002, 02:16 PM	#8
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Ho! I have noted the absence of any explanation in this thread! Certainly we can come up with a little information on the subject. I do not have the dates, which some might think al-important. I trust those who do so will post them here. As for his work with the Rohanish, it is unclear and the battles are mirkily described. He served well enough that he was learned in their language by the time he left. We know he readily and gently knew what to say to Eowyn, in TTT, and that I think, would have taken a lot of learning. He gained a good reputation with them by the time he decided to move on. What I DO know is that Aragorn served Denethor's father in Minas Tirith both on the battlefield and off. They were fast friends! Ecthelion often looked to him for council, and leaned upon him in dark times. It was when Aragorn was separated from him, during a siege similar to that we can read in ROTK, that Aragorn lead a host to beat back a Host of Orcs and Evil Men at Umbar. During that time Ecthelion was also waging war far towards the mountains, trying to guard the passes that lead to the Pelenor Fields. Alas to say, Ecthelion was wounded by a Nazgul blade, (yep, one of the other times the nazgul are mentioned as coming out to battle) and did not survive. Aragorn had (possibly) only heard of this upon his return, and when the host declared that he should step up and lead them, he declined. One might argue that there is a wonderful dialog that was lost there, if Aragorn had returned before Ecthelion had died. Aragorn might have tried to save Ecthelion, and in his passing, Ecthelion might have asked (commanded) that Aragorn lead his people, until such a time as Denethor be trained fully to rule. But this was not so, and Denethor was old enough to take commend. Aragorn stepped down, for he was not known to be of noble blood; he could not make his claim, and might have had to defend himself against a bitter foe - which Denethor had proven himself to be. There was no love between Denethor and Throrongil (Aragorn) for Denethor saw Aragorn as a usurper, a possible block to the throne. Aragorn left before anyone could stop him. They searched for him long, despite Denethor's orders. He fled to Loth Lorien, where he most probably needed time to heal and grieve for his friend Ecthelion. Galadriel took care of him, and so it was that he met Arwen in the forest, and they finally pledged their troth. sigh [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

06-05-2002, 09:55 AM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I don't have ready answers for you, but the appendices in the back of Return of the King have all the answers that are available. If you cannot find it there, it may be best left to speculation and conjecture.

06-07-2002, 02:56 AM	#4
Aragorn_the_Ranger Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 70	lol....thanks Saxony Tarn. I was wondering if it doesn't bother you, could I have a look at your story. If you don't it is perfectly fine by me. I know how I get when telling ppl about my story. Thanks anyway

06-08-2002, 03:29 AM	#7
Aragorn_the_Ranger Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 70	Hey thanks Sax. Thanks Barrow-Wight I'll have a look at that site and when my story is finished (which may take a while...lol) I'll put it on this site.

09-16-2002, 02:40 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I have some bad news. Somewhere in the bowels of HoME or possible the Letters, i have read that JRRT actually wrote a 'journeys of Aragorn' and Jorneys of gandalf' and ... Lost them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, maybe if we all hope hard enough it will turn up at marquette or in someone's attic. I imagine he lent them as he often did. don't ask me for a book/page source as I really don't recall. I read it a few years ago and it stuck sharply in my mind as a loss as sad [actually worse now that i think about it] as JRRT not finishing the Of Tuor'. best of luck to you fan-fictioners though. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-16-2002, 02:54 PM	#10
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	AHHHHHHH!!! Lindil, you have stuck me to the heart! wait..I feel faint <<<THUDDDD>>>> weeps No, say it isn't so...oh, the agony! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] edit: Bah, I'm so stuck by it that I'm writing it. Eru help my hands to be strong! Let not the keyboard smite me. I searched through every fiction, and there was one half hearted attempt of four short paragraphs by a fellow in January. I hope that I don't step on his toes by doing it over again, and in completion. There was none other in the fanfiction area. I should say to you - I am not fond of most fanfictions. they are badly written, poorly thought out, a rarely rewarding. I shall make every effort to make it a Dmn good read. I hope that you will all help me to critisize it and get it up to par... for what? I don't know. Eru help me if it's ever accepted a "canon". I shall see Tolkien spin in his grave, first. Wish me luck! [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-16-2002, 07:24 PM	#11
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Lost them! Lost them! Lindil, Lindil, you should have gone silently on and on right into geezerhood with lips stoicly still and this terrible secret locked in your breast, muttering 'they must never know ... I shall bear this burden alone ... ' Oh, never mind. 'Tis better to have known and lost than never to have known at all ... or something like that. That sounds exactly like him! I don't know, maybe that sort of 'papers fluttering everywhere' mind was necessary to construct something like the Silmarillion. We should take comfort in that. Tirned Tinnu, thank you for the stirring tale! Pleasure to hear it retold so well. Saxony Tarn has a very enjoyable tale of Boromir with references to Boromir telling his little brother tales of Thorongil when they were both kids. I thought that was a great idea. I didn't realize that the situation with Faramir replicated Aragorn's loss of his friend as a young man ... except this time, he get there in time to save the kid. That must have seemed like a wonderful grace to him. I wonder if Ecthelion and his grandson resembled each other? Faramir seems to be strong in the Numenorean heritage, and Ecthelion was a noble man by all accounts ... excellent taste in friends and champions and so forth. [Edit] Where did you get the material on Ecthelion's death, Tirned Tinnu? I was just checking spellings in Appendix A of RotK and it has Ecthelion alive when Thorongil leaves Gondor. Is this from an alternative text? Great story, anyway. [Further Edit] Go to it, Tirned Tinnu! Write those stories! I'd love to read them! [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ] [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

09-17-2002, 02:19 PM	#12
Saxony Tarn Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: a western shore Posts: 132	i ought to have you on retainer, Nar -- thanks for the free plug! (or have you read that far?) come to think of it, i should probably draft more Aragorn experts into the beta pool at this point... s.t. __________________ <-- who, me? Take the Ring? Betray the Fellowship?? Nah -- couldn't be ME, i'm too cute...

09-17-2002, 03:49 PM	#13
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Here is a bit of obscure aragorn lore that will possibly be of use to fan-fictioners. The secret dwelling of the northern Dunedain was at the confluence of the Hoarwell and Loudwater and was called unofficially [I imagine] the hidden fastness. It is reffered to in a small bit of paper from the manuscripts at Marquette university. JRRT deduced it's location apparently form the coment regarding bree that there were no ther settlements of men w/ in X number of leauges. Sorry again no source recalled for this but michael martinez confirmed it for me and apparently Elvish and RPG master David Salo was in on the find in some way. So at least you know where Aragorn calls home other than Rivendell. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-17-2002, 04:04 PM	#14
Bradley Roy Guest Posts: n/a	I really don't have any other info for you. Sorry! Although I am writing a fanfic for Aragorn. It involves his wanderings in the east. Talk about speculation! There is hardly anything in the appendices about what he does and what Rhun is like. All I know is that the "stars are strange" and there are wild kine (aka cows) there. Woohoo, that is a lot to go by! LOL Oh well, makes it a lot more fun. Long Live Elessar Telcontar!

09-17-2002, 04:37 PM	#15
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Woo, I remember reading somewhere of the "Hidden Fastness" but never knew where it lay. Thank you, Lindil, for that nugget of info. Interesting that they chose the area south of Rivendell, where Elrond's poers probably reached due to his command of the river. Makes sense to me! It affords a quick escape route to the south and the sea, if need be. [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-17-2002, 05:22 PM	#16
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	strategically it does make sense. Although it is quiet a haul to bree or the shire! I wonder wether it was a previous rhudaurian settlement or fortress? __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-17-2002, 05:35 PM	#17
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Actually, I thought that it originally referred to a Dwarven enclave. But that's just from memory, and mine is a bit rusty! __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'