Finrod and the Kinslaying

[doug*platypus]

After about the sixth time reading The Silmarillion, I believe I noticed something I had not before. I now believe that Finrod son of Finarfin took part in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, whereas before I would have thought him unable of such deeds, based solely on his good nature.

The evidence I have for his participation might be called sketchy. It comes from one passage in The Silmarillion as published by Christopher Tolkien. I don't know if the Flight of the Noldor is dealt with in The History of Middle Earth, but at any rate I don't know the series that well. Being a sporting chap, I'll also provide some of the best evidence against my theory. I think you'll find it has about the same level of reliability. For that reason, I hope we can get somewhere with a discussion of the Kinslaying, although I have a feeling that Maédhros and I may have to agree to disagree on this one!

I retell now the contest in songs of power fought between Sauron and Finrod at Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Of Beren and Lúthien).

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then suddenly Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.

Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.

Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn,
And Finrod fell before the throne.

The first stanza opens the battle. Sauron brings the disguised Orcs before him, and weaves a spell to discover their true identities. Finrod responds with his own song, trying to keep their disguises intact. In the second stanza, Finrod gains the upper hand. His song recalls the beauty of the unstained land of Aman. Starting in Nargothrond, he takes us out across the Sundering Seas to the shores of Valinor. Then, just as he is about to win the day, the vision turns to the events at Alqualondë. The misdeeds of the Noldor are recalled, then the Helcaraxë and the wars of Beleriand. Finrod is defeated by Sauron once these evil deeds are revealed.

Had Finrod been entirely blameless, I believe that he would have won this contest. In the past he has been considered as going along with Fëanor and the rebellious Noldor, but not having any part to play at Alqualondë. If this was the case, would Sauron have been able to turn the song contest to the events of the Kinslaying? I believe that guilt felt by Finrod may be a large factor. I also interpret the final line:

And Finrod fell before the throne.

to have a twofold meaning. Firstly the literal meaning; that he physically falls, defeated, in front of Sauron, and the disguises are broken. But secondly that he, along with most of the rebellious Noldor, "fell" when they took part in the Kinslaying, and shed blood in the Undrying Lands. How could Finrod have "fallen" if he had not actually participated in the events at Alqualondë? Remember that unlike the last Kinslaying at the Mouths of Sirion, no Noldor changed sides and fought against the Fëanorians. They were mad, I tells ya, maaad!!

[doug*platypus]

I don't know if this is unfair, pointless, or just plain idiotic, but I will now present the most convincing arguments for the innocence of Finrod.

First of all, we have the order in which the Noldor marched. It is possible that Finrod did not even reach Alqualondë before the battle was over.

Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of those Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went Finarfin and Finrod, and many of the noblest and wisest of the Noldor...

Thrice the people of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor was succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel...

There is some more evidence against Finrod's participation after the Prophecy of the North is spoken.

But his [Finarfin's] sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë.

Is the above evidence sufficient to completely acquit Finrod of bloodshed at Alqualondë? Hmm...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just a short post (*sigh of relief*)

My sense of the Kinslaying has always been that all Elves were "stained" by it to some extent, insofar as it demonstrated that they were not merely capable of great cruelty and evil, but that their own 'Elvish natures' (that is, what made them so great and the highest of the races) is what makes them capable of that evil.

Attempting to explain more clearly -- Elves are/were (as we all know) committed to the past, to sustaining memory unchanged and resisting the forward motion of time history and experience. This is why Feanor reacted so, shall we say, badly to the loss of the Silmarils. They were supposed to be permanent, unstained unchanging repositories of the light of Westernesse: more specifically, they were supposed to be the concrete freezing of that light (in gems: hard, inviolable, permanent) by Elves/through Elvish art. Their theft was not just the loss of something precious, but proof positive that the Elvish desire to freeze experience in art, or -- to borrow and mangle a phrase from Hamlet -- to hold an utterly static mirror up to nature, is doomed to failure. Art not only cannot freeze time and stop experience (i.e. the gems can be stained) but art also cannot be controlled or kept by the artist (i.e. the gems can be stolen).

The attempt to recover the gems is so important to the Elves because it springs from their desire/need to believe in the 'freezing' or 'immortalising' power of art. The Kinslaying, then, is only the most 'physical' and bloody expression of the flaw/desire that lies at the heart of every Elf -- that when it comes to choosing a perfect and immovable art (the gems) over an imperfect and changeable life (the Elves who stand in the way of the gems' recovery), the desire for art will always win.

OK -- so not such a short post after all. . .but one more thing:

I think the question you've posed doug is an interesting one, but perhaps a bit limiting: if what I'm suggesting has any weight at all (that Feanor is but the fullest expression of a flaw at the heart of all Elves) then whether or not Finrod was there is somewhat beside the point: the fact that he's an Elf is enough to implicate him in the the 'crime' of choosing art over life.

[Findegil]

@Fordim Hedgethistle:
I have read and heard many talk about the bad habits and behaviour of Elves in general, but this one is the most generalised one ever. Especially pointed at in the last half sentence:

... the fact that he's an Elf is enough to implicate him in the the 'crime' of choosing art over life.

I never will give way to the thought that being a member of a folk will impose you with some crime/guilt whatsoever. It might be just for a member of a folk to feel a shame for what has been done in the past in the name of this folk. But even that must come from the individual it self and can neither be demanded nor imposed form outside. (If that is tried, the outcome will most likely not be shame, but resistance and enmity.)

Now back to the topic. The strongest evidence against Finrod and his folk taking any part in the kin-slaying is given in the chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand in the Quenta Silmarillion. There Thingol had heard whispers of the kin-slaying and questioned Finrod and his brethren about it. I will give the quote a bit more extensive since it provides an other explanation why Finrod failed in the contest when the kin-slaying was sung about:

Then Finrod was greatly moved, but he was silent, for he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor; and that he was loath to do before Thingol. But in Angrod's heart the memory of the words of Caranthirs welled up again in bitterness, and he cried: "Lord, I know not what lies you have heard, nor whence; but we came not red-handed. Guiltless we came forth, save maybe of folly, to listen to the words of fell Fëanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly. No evil did we do on our road, but suffered ourselves great wrong; and forgave it. For this we are named tale-bearers to you and treasonable to the Noldor: untruly as you know, for we have of our loyalty been silent before you, and thus earned your anger. But now these charges are no longer to be borne, and the truth you shall know."
Then Angrod spoke bitterly against the sons of Fëanor, telling of the blood at Aqualondë, and the Doom of Mandos, and the burning of the ships at Losgar. And he cried: "Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the name of kinslayers and traitors?"
"Yet the shadow of Mandos leis on you also," said Melian. ...

Thus, in the song-contest with Sauron Finrod could, as here against Thingol, defend himself only by blaming other Noldor which is in it self a vault if done. Finrod was stuck between a rock and a hard place; he could only defend himself by opening a new field for Saruon to attack him. That he did not do since it would have brought others into danger and thus he suffered a defeat. And in addition we hear Melain say: "the shadow of Mandos leis on you". That is true for all the Noldor in exile, at least during the First Age. And it did weaken Finrod's position greatly.

In addition I like to provide some information on the sources used for the texts in the published Silmarillion, which we are talking about. The Kin-slaying at Aqualondë was a part of the legendarium nearly from the start (it is already told in The Lost Tales), and as soon as the Noldor were divided in the houses of Fëanor and his brethren, it was only the house of Fëanor and some of Fingons people who had a part in that battle (this was first set to paper in 1930 in The Quenta Noldorinwa.
The song-contest between Finrod and Sauron entered with the Lay of Beren and Lúthien in 1928. And the poem fragment given in The Silmarillion is taken from that source. Tolkien amended the lay after he finished The Lord of The Rings.
The talk between Thingol and Finrod and his brethren is much later, it entered the legendarium and was taken for the published text out of The Grey Annals, written after the publication of The Lord of the Rings.

Respectfully
Findegil

[The Saucepan Man]

It might be just for a member of a folk to feel a shame for what has been done in the past in the name of this folk. But even that must come from the individual it self and can neither be demanded nor imposed form outside.

If I understand correctly, Mr Hedgethistle was not saying that Sauron used the fact that Finrod was part of a race capable of perpetrating the kinslaying to defeat him. Rather, he was saying that Finrod's internal shame at what had been committed in the name of his folk weakened him in the face of Sauron's onslaught. Which is not to say that he was being held accountable by another for what was done, but rather that he felt shame at what had been done and therefore, in effect, held himself accountable.

[Maédhros]

Bravo doug*platypus, I say bravo. A very good explanation of both ends of the spectre. I want to thank you for making a thread about this topic.

First of all I want to address your first post that states that Finrod participated in the Kinslaying:

to have a twofold meaning. Firstly the literal meaning; that he physically falls, defeated, in front of Sauron, and the disguises are broken. But secondly that he, along with most of the rebellious Noldor, "fell" when they took part in the Kinslaying, and shed blood in the Undrying Lands. How could Finrod have "fallen" if he had not actually participated in the events at Alqualondë? Remember that unlike the last Kinslaying at the Mouths of Sirion, no Noldor changed sides and fought against the Fëanorians. They were mad, I tells ya, maaad!!

Another interpretation can be made too. I think that it could be said also that Finrod had fallen because even thought he knew about the Kinslaying, he let his pride get the better of him and still followed the Kinslayers to ME. His father repented after the Doom of Mandos was uttered, Finrod didn't. He followed the murderers of his mothers kin.

I would like to post something from the Later Quentas

Fëanor because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna, still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor again. And they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finrod was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon, though they had no part in that deed, were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.

Along with the quote that you have provided from the Grey Annals, I think that a stronger case can be made that neither Finrod nor those of his house, participated in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are mostly getting at what I meant Saucepan Man. Where I would want to tweak your summation of my point though, is to replace the word "shame" with "guilt". It's a subtle difference, but an important one. Shame has to do with how others perceive one to be (you are shamed in the eyes of others; it's a public event), whereas guilt is how one perceives oneself (you are guilty in your own eyes -- or in the eyes of God). There is, of course, a lot of overlap, but I feel it important to maintain the idea of guilt in order to preserve the overtly Christian gloss that I am giving this incident (and that I think Tolkien would have wanted to give it -- not that I'm bound by his interpretation or anything )

Findegil, you wrote:

I never will give way to the thought that being a member of a folk will impose you with some crime/guilt whatsoever

Well, it is absolutely your right to feel this way (and I'm not being cute or combative, honestly) but there are a lot of cultural and religious traditions that do see the world in precisely this way: the Christian doctrine of Original Sin is a great example. Adam (Feanor) went against the command of God (the Valar) and thus 'stained' all of humanity (the Elves). It's not that we (the Elves) are guilty of eating the apple (participated in the Kinslaying) ourselves -- it's just that the epitome of humanity, the foremost being created of God, Adam himself (Feanor himself) demonstrates that humans (Elves) are capable of disobedience and evil. If he (Adam or Feanor) can fall, what does that say about us (or Finrod)?

Now, let me hasten to add that I am NOT NOT NOT arguing that Feanor 'is' an allegorical representation of Adam, and that the Kinslaying 'is' the Garden of Eden -- there are, however, some very instructive parallels: consider the comparison a (very) loose analogy.

[drigel]

Sounds like this is a matter of guilt by association, which (i think) JRRT wanted to incorporate into the tale as well.

Surprisingly i agree with mr Hedgethistle again, as i did in the canon thread.

I think Tolkien wanted to portray this concept, but at the same time i would
not draw direct comparisons beyond the concept. Think of it as two
separate occurances which share a common principle, which is the
principle of one 'sin' being marred on all the race of the one 'sinner'.

Originally Elves would have (or could have) been thought to be
incapable of kinslaying (that was the impression i got), and so when it
occurs it redifines the very nature of the Elves, where once they were
incapable of it, now they are.

[in closing, there are almost too many possible parallels to the story
of Adam to dismiss this point of veiw]

[The Saucepan Man]

Where I would want to tweak your summation of my point though, is to replace the word "shame" with "guilt". It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

I am not so sure that the difference lies in whether the words used connote internal or external perceptions. One can feel ashamed of oneself, or be shamed in the eyes of others, just as one can feel guilty or be judged guilty by others.

The reason that I feel that "shame" is the more appropriate word in this situation is that it is, to my mind, more consistent with a feeling of responsibility for acts perpetrated by others. So, one can feel ashamed of acts carried out by others in one's name, whereas guilt tends to denote a feeling of personal responsibility (whether actual or perceived).

But that, as they say, is by the by.

but i would go with guilt...

think, we can be ashamed of a dirty bedroom
but guilty of a crime

[Galin]

Hmm, two quotes missing from this thread!

'... and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde;' Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

But this was not new, and arose not (<- somewhat poetic phrasing alert) because the fair Galadriel had entered the tales, for the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s noted...

'The hosts of Fingolfin followed less eagerly, and at the rear came sorrowing Finrod and Inglor and many of the noblest and fairest of the Noldor; and they looked often backward, until the lamp of Ingwe was lost in the gathering tide of gloom; and more than others they carried thence memories of the glory of their ancient home, and some even of the fair things there made with hands they took with them. Thus the folk of Finrod had no part in the dreadful deed that then was done; yet all the Gnomes that departed from Valinor came under the shadow of the curse that followed it. For it came soon into the heart of Feanor that they should persuade the Teleri,...'

Obviously fix any Finrods and Inglors with Finarfins and Finrods however, as this came well before the revision of names.