Faramir and Eowyn: Was Tolkien just pairing off?

[Cazoz]

Now whilst I'd like to think of myself as some sort of critic, I'm also a bit of a softie. So I was quite pleased when Eowyn and Faramir got together in RoTK, especially as she pretty much got turned down by Aragorn. But I found this rather sudden. So I pose this:

Do you think Tolkien was trying to accomodate a couple of bereaved characters (they lost Denethor, Boromir, Theoden, romantically Aragorn) by pairing them off?
After the House of Healing and a while bonding in the MT gardens, it just seemed so sudden to me.

I know Tolkien's books were of many contrasts and surprises, for instance he might spend more time describing a tree and certainly including a song than having the full details of a conversation. And thus some things would be drawn out, and others would be sudden and possibly even vague. For this I would use as an example the flight of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli & co.'s flight down to Pelargir after waking the dead. I know maybe Tolkien's exlcusion of details was representative of the incredible speed in which they accomplished this journey, possibly i.e. if they couldn't spare time to look at the surroundings, why should he describe them.
But I digress, having gone way off on a tangent. So basically, did some find the sudden enamouredness between Faramir and Eowyn as not particularly credible? I think it was credible eventually, but it just seemed like she was settling for seoncd best and he was so buggered from his wounds and grieving for his family that they just ended up together, reliant on each other as emotional crutches. But maybe the more spontaneous relationships have more passion and will prove more unpredictable and interesting? What do you guys think?

(Sorry for going on so long!)

[Guildo]

i guess i got sort of got that feeling too, but i like to think that Eowyn and Faramir had a relationship for they had something great in common they where both second born of the kings and there older brothers where the heirs, If Aragorn didnt show up. I my self am a younger brother where my older brother recieved my fathers name so i can kinda relate. SO any way i think they where kinda into each other before Aragorn ever came into there lives (like two children Best friends throughout there lives never realizing there relationship was love. and bother in the back of there heads knowing it would never work for they are of two different kingdoms. But realized there love for each other when the troubles of the third age ended.

But thats just my two lembas worth

[Cazoz]

I might just be being really forgetful, but I haven't read the books in a while; did they know each other before the War of the Ring?

[Rohirrim Lass]

No, they didn't know eachother previous to the war.

It didn't seem sudden to me, actually. I thought that it worked very well. They seemed similar from the beginning, so I think Tolkien intended it.

[Guildo]

I dont think it was ever mentioned if they knew each other or not before the war, so we dont know,,.. but i could have missed it

[Keeper of the Feet of Melkor]

I think that Tolkien did just pair them off...he was probably like: "Oh look, Eowyn was pushed aside by Aragorn. Why not just pair her off with Faramir the loner."

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Keeper of the Feet of Melkor ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

I remember feeling rather put off but Eowyn's sudden acceptance of Faramir. I now see that they spent many days together in the gardens, giving them time to get to know one another. I don't really think it was "pairing them off". Faramir had fallen in love, and Eowyn no better than an icicle.
When she finally did understand that her crush on Aragorn was just that- a crush, she woke to the realization the Faramir had tended her a loved her, and that she should decide as woman, not as a child. She overcame her girlish tendencies and became an adult. I liked that she finally found herself. It gave me hope, for I too, once had a crush on a man who seemed high-born and noble. I came to understand that first loves are not always the most rational of decisions. Love is not about finding someone who came carry you away from it all, as Aragorn, but finding your equal in all things. Faramir was that, and more.

On to The Paths of The Dead. I think that Tolkien was much too involved in several other plots to really give Aragorn's flight much weight at the time. If you continue reading, you'll see that Legolas gives the account later in the story. I believe that Tolkien put it off, to continue the other plots. Nevertheless, he did describe their riding through the countryside and terrorizing the townsfolk in the dead of the night. I like the blurry quality of the trip. It emphasizes Aragorn's hurry in need, and gives a glimpse of what it must be like to stay away during such a journey. Aragorn was awake from the battle Helm's Deep until the morning when he encamped outside MT, after the battle. I feel greatly for him, for I often have to stay awake long hours in my profession. I have only made it 48 hours - Aragorn did it for more than a week, It's a wonder he didn't crack up!
When you're tired, you tend to see things in a blur! You are living in the moment, wishing was it past you, trying not to nod off, fighting as if for your very life to stay alert. When finally you collapse in your bed, you go comatose. There's no waking me after staying up that long. Frankly I cannot understand why my husband hadn't called the ambulance on occation. So you see, it makes sense to me that the trip was rather muzzy.

[Selmo]

Tolkien lived through both the 1914-18 and 1939-45 wars. He saw that relationships could develope very quickly at times of great stress, when the future was so uncertain.

Tolkien, like everyone else, expected a German invasion in 1940 and must have wondered whether he and his family would survive. He put Eowyn and Faramir in the same situation. You tend to make up you mind quickly when you don't know if you'll be around tomorrow.

I think the relationship between Eowyn and Faramir was very sudden.The message that came across to me was that Faramir was very much in love with Eowyn, but I felt she was just deppressed that she couldnt get Aragorn, so she just accepted Faramir.It seems to me as if Tolkien maybe hadnt planned it, he maybe just stumbled upon it and thought, hmm they go well together.

[Lush]

So basically, did some find the sudden enamouredness between Faramir and Eowyn as not particularly credible?

Yes and no.

maybe the more spontaneous relationships have more passion and will prove more unpredictable and interesting? What do you guys think?

Well, actually, my dear, "spontanous" relationships usually only succeed in tinging your hangover with regret and nothing more. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But I digress.

Faramir had fallen in love, and Eowyn no better than an icicle.
When she finally did understand that her crush on Aragorn was just that- a crush, she woke to the realization the Faramir had tended her a loved her, and that she should decide as woman, not as a child. She overcame her girlish tendencies and became an adult.

You know, today it struck me that women chase after unavailable men are usually the same women that reject the men who offer them unconditional love and support. Hence Eowyn's behaviour is a bit incredible to me.
Then again, Tolkien was no psychologist, so I don't really hold it against him.
The only way I can rationalize Eowyn is to say that in Aragorn she saw someone who could elevate her status, thus falling in love not with the man, but with the image of a King (so basically, she didn't fall in love at all, neither did she have your typical crush), while in Faramir she found someone who had actually "awakened" her as a woman, not a leader or warrior, just a female.
Ultimately, I'm not really sure if this is realistic or not (or if bombur's ultra feminist friends will not give themselves nosebleeds over this), but it ties up that particular part of the story with a nice bow, and, like Tirned point out, leaves us with a sense of hope, so why not?

[Tirned Tinnu]

Thank you Lush, for quoting me.
You seem confused about the problem of "nice men" versus "egotistical men".
Perhaps I can offer an example.
I was once courted by a man who was 4 years older than me. Certainly too old for a 16 year old girl. I did not find him attractive. In a year when I was in full spring of my youth, a blushing virgin, ripe as a strawberry on the verge of picking, he was balding, skinny, sweaty, zit ridden, full of uncontrolled jittery movements and the tendency to chew his fingernails off. He asked me to marry him. (Of course, not that year, he'd wait for me through college.) I was horrified. If this was how he looked now, well, it was all downhill from there! He promised me that he would treat me as Pygmalion's statue, placing me on a pedestal, ever revearing me as if I were Varda, queen of the world.
I laughed haughtily, and shugged him off.

Instead I found a fighter, who was handsome and quick tongued, a swordsman and a ruffian, and pledged to him my troth though he kept me waiting for years. He betrayed me by bedding a 16 year old. Is that irony, or what?!

So I learned the hard way, that perhaps it's better to take the nice over the handsome, and the legend of The Frog Prince or Gawaine kissing the ugly woman to discover the true princess might have been correct. I think that this is what Tolkien is trying to do, to teach us about marriage and balanced pairings, about life and our choices in love.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[mark12_30]

Lush dear,

You wrote,

You know, today it struck me that women chase after unavailable men are usually the same women that reject the men who offer them unconditional love and support.

Very true. But note your words: "usually the same woman".

Eowyn had come face to face with real death. She had watched it take her uncle, and she herself had lain in its embrace.

Nothing short of the beatific vision will change and mature you faster than that. Granted, at first her response was childish-- Give me a sword and let me go die-- but then she reconsiders (under Faramir's healing influence) and says, "I will become a healer." She was not the same woman anymore. Somewhere, she opened her heart and let herself be changed deep down.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Elenna]

Wow - all of you have gone really deep. I must admit, my first reaction when I read that part of the book was, "Oh good, now everyone is going to live happily ever after."

But now I actually think it could have been symbolic. (Gasp! The word that strikes fear into the heart of lit classes everywhere.) When this is going on, the focus of Middle Earth is shifting from destruction, and definite death in battle, to picking up the pieces and healing the land. I think that Eowyn's change of heart is representing the change of heart that all the races are going through.

Plus, readers everywhere come to care for the desperate, rejected Eowyn. We'd all be sorely disappointed if he let her die in battle, or go along loving Aragorn for the rest of her life, completely unrequited.

[mark12_30]

Still pondering the question, "Had Faramir and Eowyn met before" Pellenor Fields.

When Eomer and Aragorn speak together in "The Riders Of Rohan" and Aragorn tells Eomer of Boromir's death, Eomer responds: "That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me..."

So there was less concourse between the royalty of the nieghboring kingdoms than I had guessed. Still, Eomer and Boromir had met, or at least, Eomer had "seen" Boromir. So would Eomer's little sister have seen Boromir's little brother? Hard to say, but maybe not.

Another indicator would be, that after Faramir's first conversation with her, he called the Warden of the houses of healing, and questioned him about everything he knew about her; and then the Warden recommended Merry, and Faramir talked with Merry all afternoon about her. So, I'd guess either they had never met or were only aquaintances.

[Cazoz]

Well, actually, my dear, "spontanous" relationships usually only succeed in tinging your hangover with regret and nothing more. But I digress.

Lush, I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but please don't patronise me.
I didn't direct any kind of comment at you.
And I spelt 'spontaneous' correctly, thank you.

I'm not sure if Tolkien was completely pairing off, but maybe trying to attain closure for all those left in ME. As you all know, what happened in the West is one of the most contentious topics, but what happened on ME in the Fourth Age is fairly well documented for all of the characters we were familiar with, excepting Legolas and Gimli. But as they went West too, maybe Tolkien wanted to keep up the enigmatic "one does not know any more on this matter" thing.
Of course you bloody know, it's in your head!

[mark12_30]

I doubt any spelling criticism was intended; I think the quotes were used purely for emphasis. Fear not, neither be defensive, Cazoz; irony is the more likely intention here and I doubt it was levelled at you.

[Cazoz]

I wasn't sure if it was and I don't like to be confrontational, and thought it could be irony, but these things are often misrepresented through the net, so that you can't get them. Well I didn't anyway!

[Mattius]

I myself found Eowyn an extremly frustrating character. She just made me want to scream she was so backward and mardy. When she finally came out of that 'spell' of sorts I was so relived!! She just seemed like a complete strain on my mind whilst I read the book.

[Lush]

Patronizing? Who? Moi?

I guess you must have missed the little [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] next to my response.

mark12_30, also known as Helen, brings up a very good point in saying that Eowyn was a different woman after her experience with the Witchking. Not only does she tell Faramir that she wants to be a healer, she also states that she no longer wishes to be Queen. I guess seeing death eye-to-eye helped her get her priorities in order pretty quickly. Plus, I think that Faramir may have been a little cuter that Aragorn. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for the whole issue of "nice" men vs. "egotistical" men, I don't believe that the two are mutually exclusive. I am sorry for what you went through, Tirned. At the same time, I don't believe in having a relationship with a man that you are not attracted to.

Marrying a man that you can barely bring yourself to kiss is doing a disservice to both yourself, and to him. The Frog Prince and Gawaine, I believe, are more symbolic of a fear of intimacy (well, at least the first one certainly is) than actual overcoming of your mate's unattractiveness.

Tirned, I don't know anything about your present situation, but I am sure that you know that (as Blake taught us) even though innocence gives way to experience, it doesn't mean that the world has to end. You've been burned, so was I, so was Eowyn, and so was anyone who has done any living at all. These things happen for a reason, to teach us about ourselves just as much as about the world in general, and regretting them is a waste of time. I think.

Well, now that I've completely derailed this very cool thread, is there anything in regards to Eowyn and Faramir that we've missed?

[mark12_30]

I noticed on my last readthru that Faramir tells her that her beauty surpasses even the capability of the elven language to describe.

He was smitten, I think.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien himself answered this question in one of his letters (244):

In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler.

Interesting point of view - perhaps the direct approach, without all of the games played in our culture today, is the more true and reliable one!