Of Pharazon and Miriel

[Urwen]

If someone assassinated Pharazon, what would happen to the leadership of Numenor? Miriel is his only living relative, so I imagine the throne would go to her. Or maybe one of Pharazon's men would step up and take the throne for himself.


Thoughts?

[Huinesoron]

When and who?

Isildur is probably most likely to go off half-cocked and kill Pharazon for the Faithful, but there is another possibility: Sauron. The Isildur situation varies dramatically depending on what Sauron's current status is, too.

Define your question, then we can have fun thinking of the answer.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, the rule is that kings and queens must wed someone from the Line of Elros. So there is a possibility that Anarion, who descended from Silmarien, would have loved Zimraphel in secret, and thus, if he were to dispatch Pharazon, he and Zimraphel could have a happy ending. She would get the throne and they would marry for love.


I even wrote a story about this

[Huinesoron]

Okay, in the absence of an answer of who kills him and when, I'll present three scenarios.

1. Numenor Redeemed

In his youth, Pharazon was great friends with Amandil (a generation older than him). When he returns to Numenor and seizes the Sceptre, Amandil is careful to renew that friendship. He is accepted into the closest circles. After a few years, Ar-Pharazon is about to set sail to the overthrow of Sauron - his armies have already set off - when Amandil suddenly sticks a knife in his back.

With the army - the King's Men - off in Middle-earth, Amandil is able to restore the Sceptre to Tar-Miriel without overly much trouble. A fuss gets kicked up over her lack of husband, but this is somewhat quieted when she marries Elentir, brother of Amandil. (This character exists in early versions of her story as her betrothed, before she turns to Pharazon - it's a different telling, but we can adopt the character.)

Tar-Miriel, now in a firm alliance with the Faithful, institutes a Ban on the return of the King's Men. There is a sizeable, semi-voluntary exodus of King's Men sympathisers from Numenor, heading off to join their armies. Umbar and Pelargir become major settlements and ports of the King's Men, who are hostile to both Numenor and Sauron. They may well repeat Pharazon's capture of Sauron and over time fall fully under the Shadow.

They war against Numenor, trying to reclaim the island, but Tar-Miriel implements a massive armament plan. The defence of the island is helped by a sudden storm that sinks a good chunk of the King's Men's fleet, and things settle into an uneasy ceasefire.

Whether the redemption lasts depends entirely on whether Miriel has a child; if not, the Line of Elros is probably fractured enough that you end up with a Faithful Kinstrife for the throne, and the King's Men get their chance to return.

2. The Second Civil War

Numenor already had one Civil War, when Tar-Palantir began his efforts to return to the old ways. When Miriel sees her husband beginning to listen to the whisperings of the prisoner Sauron, she knows that taking any action against him could lead to a return to such strife.

She does it anyway. She tries to disguise her hand by using poison, but the King's Men don't really fall for it. They immediately demand that the Sceptre pass to a cousin of Pharazon's, probably along with Miriel as a wife. When she refuses, they move to take her prisoner.

Miriel flees to Romenna, where the Faithful are living these days, but with the bulk of the army firmly on the side of the King's Men, staying 50 miles from the capital is untenable. Amandil urges her to flee to Middle-earth - Pelargir and Belfalas are in Faithful hands - but she refuses. She is Queen of Numenor, and will not leave the island.

The Faithful seize the navy and sail around the island to Andunie. The King's Men have to come overland, which gives Tar-Miriel just enough time to prepare. Their first attack, intended to be a hammer-blow to destroy the Faithful, is rebuffed - just.

It's hard to see how the Faithful can win this war, but perhaps they can inflict enough damage to force a peace treaty. Tar-Miriel retains the Sceptre, but is saddled with a Council that has control over many of her policies. Ultimately, the darkness is held off for a while, but her eventual successor immediately returns to the ways of the shadow.

(Meanwhile, Sauron sits in his cell, patiently waiting, chatting amiably with Miriel's advisors. He has time...)

3. The Darkened Sceptre

Sauron has been freed and made advisor to Ar-Pharazon. He has built a grand Temple to Melkor in Armenelos, and the King has begun to talk about waging war on the Valar themselves.

Isildur, grandson of the Lord of Andunie, sneaks into the palace. He intends to rescue a fruit of the White Tree, rumoured to be in danger of burning - but along the way, he finds Ar-Pharazon, drunk out of his mind, slumbering on a bench.

He takes his opportunity, but doesn't make it out alive. Taken captive by the King's Guards, he is dragged before Tar-Miriel - or rather, before Sauron, who immediately takes control of the audience. Miriel is powerless to stop the High Priest of Numenor, and a week later, the tortured Isildur is burned in the Temple, atop a pyre of wood from the White Tree.

Sauron's persecution of the Faithful is terrible to behold. The family of Isildur are the first to go, and before long Romenna is practically depopulated. Over in Middle-earth, Pelargir is razed. The King's Men grow ever more fanatical in their support of their Priest - or, soon enough, their God. Tar-Miriel is a prisoner in the palace; no-one knows if she even still lives. All her proclamations are delivered by Sauron, and all of them support his plans.

The Great Armament still occurs, 'in memory of our King, slain by the lackeys of the West'. Numenor still falls - but this time, there are no Realms in Exile established. When Sauron returns to Mordor, there is no Last Alliance to stand against him, because there are no armies strong enough to forge one.

hS

[Urwen]

Absence of the answer who kills him and when? Did you even read my post? I said Anarion would kill him. :c


There, I even highlighted this so you can see it.

[Urwen]

Also, I guess you won't be responding to 'Tidbits of Curiosity' thread or my parody thread anymore.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Absence of the answer who kills him and when? Did you even read my post? I said Anarion would kill him. :c

There, I even highlighted this so you can see it.

Ah - yes, I did miss it; I caught the part about him marrying her but not the part where he kills her. I think that would have to fall somewhere in Scenario 3, but with a different killer - Anarion wasn't old enough to pull off a pre-Sauron assassination.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, I guess you won't be responding to 'Tidbits of Curiosity' thread or my parody thread anymore.

No, I won't reply to every thread, just like you don't reply to every thread anybody else posts. I reply to the ones where I'm interested in the topic and have something to say, just as you do. When I no longer have anything to say, I stop replying.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah, but in case, I really need you, or someone who is equally knowledgeable, to analyze these lyrics for me......

[Huinesoron]

While we're doing Miriel AUs, how about this one for the mix:

What if Tar-Miriel had survived the Downfall?

It's not that hard to arrange - she just has to get on a boat with Elendil. Then you have a High Queen over Gondor and Arnor, and assuming she finds an heir - perhaps, in an ironic twist of fate, she marries (a widowed) Elendil for political reasons and has a child - that line can continue even after Isildur's death.

How would things have been different, if the two Dunedain kingdoms had been politically unified (despite having their own lines of what I assume we'd call Princes)? Any thoughts?

hS

[Urwen]

I suspect that this was indeed the case. They could have spirited her away as one of their own, and written that she had died just in case their enemies get their hands on their written annals. In actuality, she died in Gondor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

While we're doing Miriel AUs, how about this one for the mix:

What if Tar-Miriel had survived the Downfall?

It's not that hard to arrange - she just has to get on a boat with Elendil. Then you have a High Queen over Gondor and Arnor, and assuming she finds an heir - perhaps, in an ironic twist of fate, she marries (a widowed) Elendil for political reasons and has a child - that line can continue even after Isildur's death.

How would things have been different, if the two Dunedain kingdoms had been politically unified (despite having their own lines of what I assume we'd call Princes)? Any thoughts?

hS

There's a few wrinkles here--first of which is Tar-Míriel's age at the time of the Downfall. It was the shadow of age falling on Pharazôn that helped Sauron motivate him toward sailing West. He and Míriel are contemporaries, so even if they're of the line of Elros AND still rather short of the historical norms there, they're on the back nine of life. When is Elrosian menopause?

But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).

Maybe the best answer to posit is a joint rule--Thingol and Melian, Galadriel and Celeborn-style. This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).

One point that's worth considering is the divine role of the Kings of Numenor. They were the only ones allowed to speak on the Hallows of Meneltarma - the only ones allowed to pray to Iluvatar. Elendil usurps that right (in a nice way, but he does), and the Stewards do so again later (Cirion swears by the Name, asserting that High Priestly authority), but would that have happened if the legitimate High Priest(ess) was still alive? Probably not, is my thought - but on the other hand, Miriel was probably canny enough to declare Isildur her heir and give him the right.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.

You're... probably right about Meneldil. The collapse of the Arnorian claim to the High Kingship is liable to be repeated in any scenario; it's only if you can establish a strong High King independent of Arnor that you have any hope.

So how about this: Elendil was the same age as Miriel, and he was still fighting to his death at age 322. That's really old for a late Numenorean - Tar-Palantir barely topped 200. To match it you have to go back to somewhere around Tar-Vanimelde, who lived 360 years (and Numenorean women were apparently longer-lived than the men).

So how does the picture change if Tar-Miriel, as sole High Queen after Elendil's death, continues to rule for another 40 years? That's plenty of time to pick a decent heir - either her own child, or one of the two kings at the time.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not sure that Elendil usurped the role- he was after all the eldest surviving descendant of Elros. And if that was in the female line, well- that would apply to Tar-Miriel too. (Tolkien played his games with the succession law, I believe, as a way to make the Lords of Andunie the "real" true line).

I don't believe it was a usurpation of that high-priestly role when Cirion invoked the Name in his oath to Eorl. While such an oath was a matter of dreadful import and solemnity (nobody had forgotten Feanor and his sons!), it was an oath which in theory anyone could take, prince and pauper alike. (I have a notion some of the dockworkers down on the Harlond invoked the Name rather more than the official historians ever admitted in writing.)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So how does the picture change if Tar-Miriel, as sole High Queen after Elendil's death, continues to rule for another 40 years? That's plenty of time to pick a decent heir - either her own child, or one of the two kings at the time.

Well, things are definitely going to change--if nothing else, I daresay Meneldil would bend the knee to Miriel in a way he would not have to a child Valandil. And perhaps a few decades is all Valandil would need to reach an age where he could succeed to the High Kingship and hope to rule.

That is assuming, of course, that Miriel doesn't attempt to alter (well, or establish...) the laws of succession in favour of a child of her own. That would probably ally cousins Valandil and Meneldil quite quickly--unless Miriel manipulates things early on. Perhaps, since he doesn't inherit Arnor yet, Isildur doesn't leave Gondor and rules it alone--or Meneldil is very much a junior partner.

Of course, if Isildur never goes to Arnor, we have a far worse situation than Boromir or Denethor getting the One Ring: we have a potential new Witch-king possibly sitting and fretting over his stepmother (even if they got along great before, who knows how the lust for power driven by Ring will affect that) in Osgiliath. Valandil probably isn't important at all at this point, since his three elder brothers are living--unless Isildur goes to war and Miriel needs a hostage.

So... maybe Arnor comes out ahead with Queen Miriel, but I can see Gondor not making it in one piece out of the first century.


Also, on the note of Miriel's High Priestliness: I don't think this is something to disregard entirely, but High Priesthood is tied to a temple. Certainly, this is true of the Jewish priesthood that is the best model we have for the Numenoreans--once the temple in Jerusalem is lost, there are priests, but their priestly function is limited. And we know Meneltarma is important to the Elrosian priesthood: the only things they are recorded to do take place there.

[Urwen]

I drew the portrait of true ruler of Numenor, sitting upon her throne.

[Urwen]

Another thing that irks me is why the Faithful never did anything. So they stayed true to their pro-Elven view. There, they had a King who was pro-Elven too. Who, upon dying, named his only child - who was pro-Elven too - as his heiress.

Along comes Pharazon, who takes the throne by force, and the Faithful never try to oppose him and return the throne to his wife?

Did they give up on Numenor at that point or something?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I drew the portrait of true ruler of Numenor, sitting upon her throne.

You sent me off on a brief hunt to see if Tolkien ever described either of the sceptres, but it doesn't look like he did. He did describe (and indeed depict) Numenorean fabrics, so I'm imagining that in the coloured version Tar-Miriel is dressed in elaborate brocade, somewhere between Moroccan and Noldorin in style. ^_^

Originally Posted by Urwen

Another thing that irks me is why the Faithful never did anything. So they stayed true to their pro-Elven view. There, they had a King who was pro-Elven too. Who, upon dying, named his only child - who was pro-Elven too - as his heiress.

Along comes Pharazon, who takes the throne by force, and the Faithful never try to oppose him and return the throne to his wife?

Did they give up on Numenor at that point or something?

Did they have the manpower to pull that off? The days when the Faithful and the King's Men were balanced forces were long past; Tar-Palantir's reforms were met with open revolt, and he seems to have basically holed up in his tower in Andunie to avoid actually dealing with them. I'm sure he felt supported, hanging out in the Faithful heartland - that's why he thought Miriel would be able to take the sceptre - but I don't think he was generally popular.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Gimilkhad was actually running Numenor 'in the king's name' for most of Tar-Palantir's reign. He was the king's brother, and with Tar-Palantir off in Andunie, who else would take over administration? The Gateway specifically says that 'most of the Numenoreans... were led by Gimilkhad and Pharazon, and given the latter's known throne-taking tendencies, are we really to believe they confined themselves to ideological leadership?

As supporting evidence, I offer up the fact that the eventual Faithful evacuation used only 9 ships. Assuming they somehow managed to cram them in as densely as the inmates on a prison hulk, that's still under 5000 surviving Faithful at the Downfall. Okay, that's after the Sauronian persecutions - but Numenor was on a scale with Great Britain, which had a population in the millions during the Medieval period. The Faithful were a tiny religious minority by this point.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Did they have the manpower to pull that off? The days when the Faithful and the King's Men were balanced forces were long past; Tar-Palantir's reforms were met with open revolt, and he seems to have basically holed up in his tower in Andunie to avoid actually dealing with them. I'm sure he felt supported, hanging out in the Faithful heartland - that's why he thought Miriel would be able to take the sceptre - but I don't think he was generally popular.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Gimilkhad was actually running Numenor 'in the king's name' for most of Tar-Palantir's reign. He was the king's brother, and with Tar-Palantir off in Andunie, who else would take over administration? The Gateway specifically says that 'most of the Numenoreans... were led by Gimilkhad and Pharazon, and given the latter's known throne-taking tendencies, are we really to believe they confined themselves to ideological leadership?

As supporting evidence, I offer up the fact that the eventual Faithful evacuation used only 9 ships. Assuming they somehow managed to cram them in as densely as the inmates on a prison hulk, that's still under 5000 surviving Faithful at the Downfall. Okay, that's after the Sauronian persecutions - but Numenor was on a scale with Great Britain, which had a population in the millions during the Medieval period. The Faithful were a tiny religious minority by this point.
hS

Maybe not, but here is my counter-offer: assassination. Gimilkhad was long-dead at this point of time. If Pharazon died childless, then the throne would automatically revert to the last remaining descendant of Elros: Miriel, and no one would be left to oppose her. And ensuring he died childless would be easy too, for someone with sufficient knowledge of herbs.

Pharazon could be manipulated by those he considers his enemies (as proven by Sauron). So it'd be easy for the Faithful to install a sleeper agent at the court, who would pretend to support Pharazon but in reality, support Miriel. They could regularly serve her with some sort of beverage (i.e tea) that would keep her from becoming pregnant with his child. And then, at the opportune moment, they would kill him.

He is dead. He has no children. Miriel becomes Queen, as not even the King's Men would have anyone else to rally behind.

Of course, all of this happens before Pharazon captures Sauron, as he could be the heir that the King's Men could rally behind.

Which brings me to another point: Perhaps Sauron wanted this all along. He never intended for Numenor to be sunk. He only wanted Pharazon to die. Miriel would have inherited the throne with his backing, and then he'd have enticed her somehow. Maybe he'd be like 'I killed him, I gave you what you've always wanted, ruling Numenor and bringing it back to his former glory. Surely I deserve a reward?' in order to get into her good graces, and eventually, get her to consider marrying him. Then he'd rule Numenor through her.

[Urwen]

Speaking of which, I heard your theory that Witch-King is Tar-Telperien. Now hear out mine regarding who it is.

Witch-King used to be of Race of Men.

"They were once Men. Great Kings of Men. Then Sauron the Deceiver gave them Nine Rings of Power." - Aragorn

Now, which other ruler was Sauron closest to? Pharazon, naturally. But would Sauron really think of Pharazon as someone worthy enough to be his top lieutenant and the leader of his main strike force? I don't think he would. Was there someone else around that he would think was worthy enough? As it happens, there was.

So he convinced Pharazon to embark on suicide mission, along with majority of his men. Then he gave one of Nine Rings of Power to Zimraphel, convincing her that she'd be able to undo Pharazon's work and all the corruption that happened in Numenor, and that she'd be able to bring Elves back. It was this that convinced her to take it. With the help of the Ring, she survived the Downfall.

The Ring slowly corrupted her and eventually turned her into one of the Ringwraiths. Because of her noble blood, Sauron made her a leader of the Nazgul.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

He is dead. He has no children. Miriel becomes Queen, as not even the King's Men would have anyone else to rally behind.

I think this is essentially my Scenario 1 from the beginning of the thread. The main argument that it couldn't happen in canon is a moral one: in Tolkien's worldview, the Good Guys wouldn't sink so low as to attempt assassination. The closest incident I can think of is Turin's attack on Brodda, which is portrayed very negatively, and immediately highlighted as killing one of his few remaining relatives, and increasing the persecution of his House. In canon, even when Isildur - the most morally grey member of the Faithful, who at one point was portrayed as somewhat sympathising with the King's Men - was sneaking into the enemy-held palace, his only goal was to retrieve a fruit of the White Tree, not to take any direct action against Pharazon.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which brings me to another point: Perhaps Sauron wanted this all along. He never intended for Numenor to be sunk. He only wanted Pharazon to die. Miriel would have inherited the throne with his backing, and then he'd have enticed her somehow. Maybe he'd be like 'I killed him, I gave you what you've always wanted, ruling Numenor and bringing it back to his former glory. Surely I deserve a reward?' in order to get into her good graces, and eventually, get her to consider marrying him. Then he'd rule Numenor through her.

Now there's a terrifying thought. o.o But... if we're talking about Pharazon dying through his attack on Aman, then by that point Sauron is already being worshipped as a god by the Numenoreans. Yes, he loves his manipulation and schemes, but why bother with Miriel when he could just throw her onto the fire and rule directly?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Speaking of which, I heard your theory that Witch-King is Tar-Telperien. Now hear out mine regarding who it is.

Witch-King used to be of Race of Men.

Now, which other ruler was Sauron closest to? Pharazon, naturally. But would Sauron really think of Pharazon as someone worthy enough to be his top lieutenant and the leader of his main strike force? I don't think he would. Was there someone else around that he would think was worthy enough? As it happens, there was.

So he convinced Pharazon to embark on suicide mission, along with majority of his men. Then he gave one of Nine Rings of Power to Zimraphel, convincing her that she'd be able to undo Pharazon's work and all the corruption that happened in Numenor, and that she'd be able to bring Elves back. It was this that convinced her to take it. With the help of the Ring, she survived the Downfall.

The Ring slowly corrupted her and eventually turned her into one of the Ringwraiths. Because of her noble blood, Sauron made her a leader of the Nazgul.

Ya know, if you want to keep her alive, there are better ways than turning her into a cursed zombie-ghost. All indications are that the Nine are the people who were originally given the Rings; certain video games aside, there's no hint that the Nazgul were ever killed or abandoned and had to be replaced.

But okay, let's play with it... one of the Nine tripped over a dragon and got eaten or something, and Sauron is out for a replacement. While Pharazon is making rude gestures towards the West, Sauron spends his time working on Miriel. "Of course, you're the true queen," he says, "but these fools won't accept that. Maybe even the Valar couldn't convince them... but the One who dwells in the Dark could."

Obviously, says Miriel. The One can do anything.

"Of course," Sauron says, "but sometimes He needs us to make sacrifices to show the depth of our faith. Your Faithful are willing to make sacrifices, yes?"

Then we need to keep Miriel tucked away in the palace for a bit, unaware of the atrocities Sauron's perpetrating in his Temple. When she finds out, she's horrified - "But," says Sauron, "you did agree to it..."

We know Sauron gave his Rings to people in positions of power, so a reasonable assumption is that Miriel received hers just when Pharazon sailed away. "He won't be coming back," Sauron tells her. "The sceptre is yours."

Um, no, says Miriel. My so-called husband took it with him.

"Ah, well then," Sauron says, "perhaps this Ring would serve in its place..."

This is why even Miriel's efforts to climb Meneltarma and appeal to the One don't save Numenor - she's doing it while thoroughly tainted with the Shadow. And the Downfall kills her - or at least, her body. But her spirit is already bound to her Ring...

It probably takes a while for it to wash up in Middle-earth and for Miriel to reform or whatever (this is wild speculation; Tolkien never disembodied the Nazgul, so we don't know how it would go). By that time, the Last Alliance has already fought; the Middle-earth that greets Miriel is one where Numenor, Mordor, and Lindon have crashed against each other and been mutually destroyed. Elendil's descendents haven't even kept a single kingdom together - there's at least two of them, and if enough time has passed, maybe four (or more, if Umbar counts). She's consumed by despair, and for up to a thousand years wanders Middle-earth as a bitter ghost.

One interesting consequence is that this opens the possibility that she wasn't fully under Sauron's thumb in the days of Angmar. He clearly helped her out - but he'd never had a chance to use his Ring to control her, so she was more of an ally he was actively manipulating than a slave. It's an interesting twist on the story - but you can be sure that, once Angmar fell, he would have brought her to his side, and spent the next few centuries ensuring she was just as far under his control as the other Ringwraiths.

I don't think it's likely. It hinges on Miriel being secretly evil, or at least neutral, which flies against everything Tolkien wrote about her. But it could play out interestingly nontheless.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think this is essentially my Scenario 1 from the beginning of the thread. The main argument that it couldn't happen in canon is a moral one: in Tolkien's worldview, the Good Guys wouldn't sink so low as to attempt assassination. The closest incident I can think of is Turin's attack on Brodda, which is portrayed very negatively, and immediately highlighted as killing one of his few remaining relatives, and increasing the persecution of his House. In canon, even when Isildur - the most morally grey member of the Faithful, who at one point was portrayed as somewhat sympathising with the King's Men - was sneaking into the enemy-held palace, his only goal was to retrieve a fruit of the White Tree, not to take any direct action against Pharazon.



Now there's a terrifying thought. o.o But... if we're talking about Pharazon dying through his attack on Aman, then by that point Sauron is already being worshipped as a god by the Numenoreans. Yes, he loves his manipulation and schemes, but why bother with Miriel when he could just throw her onto the fire and rule directly?



Ya know, if you want to keep her alive, there are better ways than turning her into a cursed zombie-ghost. All indications are that the Nine are the people who were originally given the Rings; certain video games aside, there's no hint that the Nazgul were ever killed or abandoned and had to be replaced.

But okay, let's play with it... one of the Nine tripped over a dragon and got eaten or something, and Sauron is out for a replacement. While Pharazon is making rude gestures towards the West, Sauron spends his time working on Miriel. "Of course, you're the true queen," he says, "but these fools won't accept that. Maybe even the Valar couldn't convince them... but the One who dwells in the Dark could."

Obviously, says Miriel. The One can do anything.

"Of course," Sauron says, "but sometimes He needs us to make sacrifices to show the depth of our faith. Your Faithful are willing to make sacrifices, yes?"

Then we need to keep Miriel tucked away in the palace for a bit, unaware of the atrocities Sauron's perpetrating in his Temple. When she finds out, she's horrified - "But," says Sauron, "you did agree to it..."

We know Sauron gave his Rings to people in positions of power, so a reasonable assumption is that Miriel received hers just when Pharazon sailed away. "He won't be coming back," Sauron tells her. "The sceptre is yours."

Um, no, says Miriel. My so-called husband took it with him.

"Ah, well then," Sauron says, "perhaps this Ring would serve in its place..."

This is why even Miriel's efforts to climb Meneltarma and appeal to the One don't save Numenor - she's doing it while thoroughly tainted with the Shadow. And the Downfall kills her - or at least, her body. But her spirit is already bound to her Ring...

It probably takes a while for it to wash up in Middle-earth and for Miriel to reform or whatever (this is wild speculation; Tolkien never disembodied the Nazgul, so we don't know how it would go). By that time, the Last Alliance has already fought; the Middle-earth that greets Miriel is one where Numenor, Mordor, and Lindon have crashed against each other and been mutually destroyed. Elendil's descendents haven't even kept a single kingdom together - there's at least two of them, and if enough time has passed, maybe four (or more, if Umbar counts). She's consumed by despair, and for up to a thousand years wanders Middle-earth as a bitter ghost.

One interesting consequence is that this opens the possibility that she wasn't fully under Sauron's thumb in the days of Angmar. He clearly helped her out - but he'd never had a chance to use his Ring to control her, so she was more of an ally he was actively manipulating than a slave. It's an interesting twist on the story - but you can be sure that, once Angmar fell, he would have brought her to his side, and spent the next few centuries ensuring she was just as far under his control as the other Ringwraiths.

I don't think it's likely. It hinges on Miriel being secretly evil, or at least neutral, which flies against everything Tolkien wrote about her. But it could play out interestingly nontheless.

hS

Ah, but as Gandalf said 'I would take the Ring with a desire to do good, but through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine'.


It could have been the same with Miriel. She could have accepted one of the Nine with the intention of saving Numenor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Nine had all been distributed long ere the final days of Numenor. The Nazgul had already appeared ca. SA 2250, a thousand years before

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, the Nine had all been distributed long ere the final days of Numenor. The Nazgul had already appeared ca. SA 2250, a thousand years before

Soooo, what you're saying is that Tar-Telperien was the original Witch-Queen, but Sauron eventually got fed up with her snootiness, kicked her out, and replaced her with Miriel?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you meant.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Soooo, what you're saying is that Tar-Telperien was the original Witch-Queen, but Sauron eventually got fed up with her snootiness, kicked her out, and replaced her with Miriel?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you meant.

hS

Yeah, that IS what he is saying.

[Urwen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dprp5QptFI

Miriel isn't even mentioned here.....

My bad, she was, but only as a footnote. She is more than a footnote. This needs fixing asap.

[Urwen]

*gears up to write a mega fanfic about this subject.*

[Urwen]

Imagine, if you will, a world where Tar-Palantir was more politically savvy. Imagine a world where he entrusted his only offspring to Amandil to raise her. They spread the word that she died shortly after birth to protect her until the time is right. Imagine a world where Pharazon ascended the throne unmolested, and over time grew careless, believing that no one could challenge him. Imagine him being killed in his sleep by a Faithful loyalist. Imagine if they started clamoring on who would inherit the throne. Imagine, at that point, Amandil revealing the child of Tar-Palantir, who didn't die after all.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Faithful assassinating people in their beds feels way more Martiny than Tolkienish.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Faithful assassinating people in their beds feels way more Martiny than Tolkienish.

Tell that to Morleg.

[Urwen]

Why did Eru kill her but spare him? If anything, it should have been the other way around, even from Eru's perspective. In the Bible, the God rewarded the faithful and punished heretics. She is the faithful one; he is the heretic.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why did Eru kill her but spare him? If anything, it should have been the other way around, even from Eru's perspective. In the Bible, the God rewarded the faithful and punished heretics. She is the faithful one; he is the heretic.

That's Melkorian thinking at work - the idea that living, even at the expense of righteousness and pleasure, was better than death.

Remember that death is the gift of Iluvatar to mortals. The Eldar and even the Valar were bound to the world, growing wearier with each passing age; only mortals could break free of it, returning to their Father. That freedom - after a lifetime of bondage to a world grown cold and harsh - was the greatest gift the One could give Tar-Miriel.

As for Pharazon, he got exactly what his kind had always wanted. For centuries they'd been preserving the bodies of their dead, keeping them at rest in elaborate tombs as if doing so could somehow maintain their life. Now Pharazon the Usurper is entombed alive, captured in the very moment that his victory turned to defeat and his glory to ash. If he's aware of his state - and I dearly hope he is - there could be no punishment more fitting.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That's Melkorian thinking at work - the idea that living, even at the expense of righteousness and pleasure, was better than death.

Remember that death is the gift of Iluvatar to mortals. The Eldar and even the Valar were bound to the world, growing wearier with each passing age; only mortals could break free of it, returning to their Father. That freedom - after a lifetime of bondage to a world grown cold and harsh - was the greatest gift the One could give Tar-Miriel.

As for Pharazon, he got exactly what his kind had always wanted. For centuries they'd been preserving the bodies of their dead, keeping them at rest in elaborate tombs as if doing so could somehow maintain their life. Now Pharazon the Usurper is entombed alive, captured in the very moment that his victory turned to defeat and his glory to ash. If he's aware of his state - and I dearly hope he is - there could be no punishment more fitting.

hS

Fair enough.

[Pervinca Took]

I want comeuppance for wickedness, but not eternal or even near-eternal comeuppance. The idea of hell in any form is abhorrent to me.