Of Pharazon and Miriel

[Urwen]

Another thing that irks me is why the Faithful never did anything. So they stayed true to their pro-Elven view. There, they had a King who was pro-Elven too. Who, upon dying, named his only child - who was pro-Elven too - as his heiress.

Along comes Pharazon, who takes the throne by force, and the Faithful never try to oppose him and return the throne to his wife?

Did they give up on Numenor at that point or something?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I drew the portrait of true ruler of Numenor, sitting upon her throne.

You sent me off on a brief hunt to see if Tolkien ever described either of the sceptres, but it doesn't look like he did. He did describe (and indeed depict) Numenorean fabrics, so I'm imagining that in the coloured version Tar-Miriel is dressed in elaborate brocade, somewhere between Moroccan and Noldorin in style. ^_^

Originally Posted by Urwen

Another thing that irks me is why the Faithful never did anything. So they stayed true to their pro-Elven view. There, they had a King who was pro-Elven too. Who, upon dying, named his only child - who was pro-Elven too - as his heiress.

Along comes Pharazon, who takes the throne by force, and the Faithful never try to oppose him and return the throne to his wife?

Did they give up on Numenor at that point or something?

Did they have the manpower to pull that off? The days when the Faithful and the King's Men were balanced forces were long past; Tar-Palantir's reforms were met with open revolt, and he seems to have basically holed up in his tower in Andunie to avoid actually dealing with them. I'm sure he felt supported, hanging out in the Faithful heartland - that's why he thought Miriel would be able to take the sceptre - but I don't think he was generally popular.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Gimilkhad was actually running Numenor 'in the king's name' for most of Tar-Palantir's reign. He was the king's brother, and with Tar-Palantir off in Andunie, who else would take over administration? The Gateway specifically says that 'most of the Numenoreans... were led by Gimilkhad and Pharazon, and given the latter's known throne-taking tendencies, are we really to believe they confined themselves to ideological leadership?

As supporting evidence, I offer up the fact that the eventual Faithful evacuation used only 9 ships. Assuming they somehow managed to cram them in as densely as the inmates on a prison hulk, that's still under 5000 surviving Faithful at the Downfall. Okay, that's after the Sauronian persecutions - but Numenor was on a scale with Great Britain, which had a population in the millions during the Medieval period. The Faithful were a tiny religious minority by this point.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Did they have the manpower to pull that off? The days when the Faithful and the King's Men were balanced forces were long past; Tar-Palantir's reforms were met with open revolt, and he seems to have basically holed up in his tower in Andunie to avoid actually dealing with them. I'm sure he felt supported, hanging out in the Faithful heartland - that's why he thought Miriel would be able to take the sceptre - but I don't think he was generally popular.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Gimilkhad was actually running Numenor 'in the king's name' for most of Tar-Palantir's reign. He was the king's brother, and with Tar-Palantir off in Andunie, who else would take over administration? The Gateway specifically says that 'most of the Numenoreans... were led by Gimilkhad and Pharazon, and given the latter's known throne-taking tendencies, are we really to believe they confined themselves to ideological leadership?

As supporting evidence, I offer up the fact that the eventual Faithful evacuation used only 9 ships. Assuming they somehow managed to cram them in as densely as the inmates on a prison hulk, that's still under 5000 surviving Faithful at the Downfall. Okay, that's after the Sauronian persecutions - but Numenor was on a scale with Great Britain, which had a population in the millions during the Medieval period. The Faithful were a tiny religious minority by this point.
hS

Maybe not, but here is my counter-offer: assassination. Gimilkhad was long-dead at this point of time. If Pharazon died childless, then the throne would automatically revert to the last remaining descendant of Elros: Miriel, and no one would be left to oppose her. And ensuring he died childless would be easy too, for someone with sufficient knowledge of herbs.

Pharazon could be manipulated by those he considers his enemies (as proven by Sauron). So it'd be easy for the Faithful to install a sleeper agent at the court, who would pretend to support Pharazon but in reality, support Miriel. They could regularly serve her with some sort of beverage (i.e tea) that would keep her from becoming pregnant with his child. And then, at the opportune moment, they would kill him.

He is dead. He has no children. Miriel becomes Queen, as not even the King's Men would have anyone else to rally behind.

Of course, all of this happens before Pharazon captures Sauron, as he could be the heir that the King's Men could rally behind.

Which brings me to another point: Perhaps Sauron wanted this all along. He never intended for Numenor to be sunk. He only wanted Pharazon to die. Miriel would have inherited the throne with his backing, and then he'd have enticed her somehow. Maybe he'd be like 'I killed him, I gave you what you've always wanted, ruling Numenor and bringing it back to his former glory. Surely I deserve a reward?' in order to get into her good graces, and eventually, get her to consider marrying him. Then he'd rule Numenor through her.

[Urwen]

Speaking of which, I heard your theory that Witch-King is Tar-Telperien. Now hear out mine regarding who it is.

Witch-King used to be of Race of Men.

"They were once Men. Great Kings of Men. Then Sauron the Deceiver gave them Nine Rings of Power." - Aragorn

Now, which other ruler was Sauron closest to? Pharazon, naturally. But would Sauron really think of Pharazon as someone worthy enough to be his top lieutenant and the leader of his main strike force? I don't think he would. Was there someone else around that he would think was worthy enough? As it happens, there was.

So he convinced Pharazon to embark on suicide mission, along with majority of his men. Then he gave one of Nine Rings of Power to Zimraphel, convincing her that she'd be able to undo Pharazon's work and all the corruption that happened in Numenor, and that she'd be able to bring Elves back. It was this that convinced her to take it. With the help of the Ring, she survived the Downfall.

The Ring slowly corrupted her and eventually turned her into one of the Ringwraiths. Because of her noble blood, Sauron made her a leader of the Nazgul.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

He is dead. He has no children. Miriel becomes Queen, as not even the King's Men would have anyone else to rally behind.

I think this is essentially my Scenario 1 from the beginning of the thread. The main argument that it couldn't happen in canon is a moral one: in Tolkien's worldview, the Good Guys wouldn't sink so low as to attempt assassination. The closest incident I can think of is Turin's attack on Brodda, which is portrayed very negatively, and immediately highlighted as killing one of his few remaining relatives, and increasing the persecution of his House. In canon, even when Isildur - the most morally grey member of the Faithful, who at one point was portrayed as somewhat sympathising with the King's Men - was sneaking into the enemy-held palace, his only goal was to retrieve a fruit of the White Tree, not to take any direct action against Pharazon.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which brings me to another point: Perhaps Sauron wanted this all along. He never intended for Numenor to be sunk. He only wanted Pharazon to die. Miriel would have inherited the throne with his backing, and then he'd have enticed her somehow. Maybe he'd be like 'I killed him, I gave you what you've always wanted, ruling Numenor and bringing it back to his former glory. Surely I deserve a reward?' in order to get into her good graces, and eventually, get her to consider marrying him. Then he'd rule Numenor through her.

Now there's a terrifying thought. o.o But... if we're talking about Pharazon dying through his attack on Aman, then by that point Sauron is already being worshipped as a god by the Numenoreans. Yes, he loves his manipulation and schemes, but why bother with Miriel when he could just throw her onto the fire and rule directly?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Speaking of which, I heard your theory that Witch-King is Tar-Telperien. Now hear out mine regarding who it is.

Witch-King used to be of Race of Men.

Now, which other ruler was Sauron closest to? Pharazon, naturally. But would Sauron really think of Pharazon as someone worthy enough to be his top lieutenant and the leader of his main strike force? I don't think he would. Was there someone else around that he would think was worthy enough? As it happens, there was.

So he convinced Pharazon to embark on suicide mission, along with majority of his men. Then he gave one of Nine Rings of Power to Zimraphel, convincing her that she'd be able to undo Pharazon's work and all the corruption that happened in Numenor, and that she'd be able to bring Elves back. It was this that convinced her to take it. With the help of the Ring, she survived the Downfall.

The Ring slowly corrupted her and eventually turned her into one of the Ringwraiths. Because of her noble blood, Sauron made her a leader of the Nazgul.

Ya know, if you want to keep her alive, there are better ways than turning her into a cursed zombie-ghost. All indications are that the Nine are the people who were originally given the Rings; certain video games aside, there's no hint that the Nazgul were ever killed or abandoned and had to be replaced.

But okay, let's play with it... one of the Nine tripped over a dragon and got eaten or something, and Sauron is out for a replacement. While Pharazon is making rude gestures towards the West, Sauron spends his time working on Miriel. "Of course, you're the true queen," he says, "but these fools won't accept that. Maybe even the Valar couldn't convince them... but the One who dwells in the Dark could."

Obviously, says Miriel. The One can do anything.

"Of course," Sauron says, "but sometimes He needs us to make sacrifices to show the depth of our faith. Your Faithful are willing to make sacrifices, yes?"

Then we need to keep Miriel tucked away in the palace for a bit, unaware of the atrocities Sauron's perpetrating in his Temple. When she finds out, she's horrified - "But," says Sauron, "you did agree to it..."

We know Sauron gave his Rings to people in positions of power, so a reasonable assumption is that Miriel received hers just when Pharazon sailed away. "He won't be coming back," Sauron tells her. "The sceptre is yours."

Um, no, says Miriel. My so-called husband took it with him.

"Ah, well then," Sauron says, "perhaps this Ring would serve in its place..."

This is why even Miriel's efforts to climb Meneltarma and appeal to the One don't save Numenor - she's doing it while thoroughly tainted with the Shadow. And the Downfall kills her - or at least, her body. But her spirit is already bound to her Ring...

It probably takes a while for it to wash up in Middle-earth and for Miriel to reform or whatever (this is wild speculation; Tolkien never disembodied the Nazgul, so we don't know how it would go). By that time, the Last Alliance has already fought; the Middle-earth that greets Miriel is one where Numenor, Mordor, and Lindon have crashed against each other and been mutually destroyed. Elendil's descendents haven't even kept a single kingdom together - there's at least two of them, and if enough time has passed, maybe four (or more, if Umbar counts). She's consumed by despair, and for up to a thousand years wanders Middle-earth as a bitter ghost.

One interesting consequence is that this opens the possibility that she wasn't fully under Sauron's thumb in the days of Angmar. He clearly helped her out - but he'd never had a chance to use his Ring to control her, so she was more of an ally he was actively manipulating than a slave. It's an interesting twist on the story - but you can be sure that, once Angmar fell, he would have brought her to his side, and spent the next few centuries ensuring she was just as far under his control as the other Ringwraiths.

I don't think it's likely. It hinges on Miriel being secretly evil, or at least neutral, which flies against everything Tolkien wrote about her. But it could play out interestingly nontheless.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think this is essentially my Scenario 1 from the beginning of the thread. The main argument that it couldn't happen in canon is a moral one: in Tolkien's worldview, the Good Guys wouldn't sink so low as to attempt assassination. The closest incident I can think of is Turin's attack on Brodda, which is portrayed very negatively, and immediately highlighted as killing one of his few remaining relatives, and increasing the persecution of his House. In canon, even when Isildur - the most morally grey member of the Faithful, who at one point was portrayed as somewhat sympathising with the King's Men - was sneaking into the enemy-held palace, his only goal was to retrieve a fruit of the White Tree, not to take any direct action against Pharazon.



Now there's a terrifying thought. o.o But... if we're talking about Pharazon dying through his attack on Aman, then by that point Sauron is already being worshipped as a god by the Numenoreans. Yes, he loves his manipulation and schemes, but why bother with Miriel when he could just throw her onto the fire and rule directly?



Ya know, if you want to keep her alive, there are better ways than turning her into a cursed zombie-ghost. All indications are that the Nine are the people who were originally given the Rings; certain video games aside, there's no hint that the Nazgul were ever killed or abandoned and had to be replaced.

But okay, let's play with it... one of the Nine tripped over a dragon and got eaten or something, and Sauron is out for a replacement. While Pharazon is making rude gestures towards the West, Sauron spends his time working on Miriel. "Of course, you're the true queen," he says, "but these fools won't accept that. Maybe even the Valar couldn't convince them... but the One who dwells in the Dark could."

Obviously, says Miriel. The One can do anything.

"Of course," Sauron says, "but sometimes He needs us to make sacrifices to show the depth of our faith. Your Faithful are willing to make sacrifices, yes?"

Then we need to keep Miriel tucked away in the palace for a bit, unaware of the atrocities Sauron's perpetrating in his Temple. When she finds out, she's horrified - "But," says Sauron, "you did agree to it..."

We know Sauron gave his Rings to people in positions of power, so a reasonable assumption is that Miriel received hers just when Pharazon sailed away. "He won't be coming back," Sauron tells her. "The sceptre is yours."

Um, no, says Miriel. My so-called husband took it with him.

"Ah, well then," Sauron says, "perhaps this Ring would serve in its place..."

This is why even Miriel's efforts to climb Meneltarma and appeal to the One don't save Numenor - she's doing it while thoroughly tainted with the Shadow. And the Downfall kills her - or at least, her body. But her spirit is already bound to her Ring...

It probably takes a while for it to wash up in Middle-earth and for Miriel to reform or whatever (this is wild speculation; Tolkien never disembodied the Nazgul, so we don't know how it would go). By that time, the Last Alliance has already fought; the Middle-earth that greets Miriel is one where Numenor, Mordor, and Lindon have crashed against each other and been mutually destroyed. Elendil's descendents haven't even kept a single kingdom together - there's at least two of them, and if enough time has passed, maybe four (or more, if Umbar counts). She's consumed by despair, and for up to a thousand years wanders Middle-earth as a bitter ghost.

One interesting consequence is that this opens the possibility that she wasn't fully under Sauron's thumb in the days of Angmar. He clearly helped her out - but he'd never had a chance to use his Ring to control her, so she was more of an ally he was actively manipulating than a slave. It's an interesting twist on the story - but you can be sure that, once Angmar fell, he would have brought her to his side, and spent the next few centuries ensuring she was just as far under his control as the other Ringwraiths.

I don't think it's likely. It hinges on Miriel being secretly evil, or at least neutral, which flies against everything Tolkien wrote about her. But it could play out interestingly nontheless.

hS

Ah, but as Gandalf said 'I would take the Ring with a desire to do good, but through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine'.


It could have been the same with Miriel. She could have accepted one of the Nine with the intention of saving Numenor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, the Nine had all been distributed long ere the final days of Numenor. The Nazgul had already appeared ca. SA 2250, a thousand years before