I don't believe this

[merenwen]

i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but saying that if you like lotr you are not a christian is a little harsh! if that's his opinion that's fine, but he shouldn't accuse like that.. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[peony_foxburr]

1. Referring to JRRT as a "hellbound Roman Catholic" unmasks this nut as what he is--a Bigot. Nothing says it better than "My particular brand of religion is the ONLY right one."
2. It's also supremely ironical for a "religious" person to condemn LOTR as being anti-Christian. One of the central concepts of Christianity is that the individual only achieves salvation through the grace of God--NOT simply his own efforts to be, or to do, "good." And this point of view is supported in LOTR, in that Frodo is NOT able to destroy the Ring, on his own--it takes the presence of Gollum to bring that about. Although Tolkien doesn't discuss Middle Earth theology in LOTR, it is explicated in The Silmarillion, for example.
3. Jesus of Nazareth would weep to know how many millions have been slaughtered in his name. And the first step, in my opinion, was someone saying "I'm the only one who knows God's will."

[Finwe]

I agree with you peony. I don't think Jesus meant for his followers to forcibly convert all those that they met. The religion that he preached was one of love, and it would really stretch facts to claim that the Crusades were fought out of love for the Saracens.
After looking at the amount of damage that religious wars have inflicted upon our world, I'm really considering just giving up all distinctions between religions. I mean, isn't a "religion" just another way to "reach" God? Our goal is ultimately the same, it's just that we all have different methods. Why do they have to classify people based on that?
Christianity itself is a very beautiful religion. I'm not even Christian (I'm Hindu) and I still believe so. I think that all religions are beautiful. It is just clerics' interpretations of them that either beautify or mar those religions.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I just thought of something- I'm sorry if someone else has said it.
He concentrates too much on the authors. Lets say, for arguments sake, that both JRRT and JKR are in fact heretics. By their books they want to make people become witches and wizards. In fact they're probably zipping around right now on broomsticks cackling.

BUT people read their books and through messages that the two of them didn't mean to send out they decide to become better Christians. I mean, speaking only for myself, the examples given by characters make me want to be more self-sacrificing, braver, kinder, more noble. How is that wrong? I mean people have truly been touched by these books and gone on to become better people. Even if this is not what the authors meant why is it a problem?

I mentioned my book. This is one of the best phrases:

In ME I have found a training ground, a place where I can apprentice to those whose gifts of charity, wisdom, kindness, mercy, love and faithfulness far surpass my own...Reading about the virtues of fictional characters has little power to instill those virtues in us. Yet good books can give us a template, a way of understanding the world, so that when our time of testing comes, when the deed is set before us that we alone have been called to do, we will know the choices that we face.

Once again, how can that be wrong?

And someone mentioned about sending him a link to the BDs. There is no way he would profane himself by even considering it. He thinks that it's all wrong and he doesn't strike me as a person who is willing to admit the fact that he may be wrong. Or even that there are other possibilities. How very Christian of him, I must say.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[TealDude4]

This duy has no idea what he's talking about. He's saying that true Christians don't even read LOTR. I mean, nearly every Christian has read it. I bet even Ned Flanders has read LOTR, and he's as Christian as a person can get.



Note: I made the pic myself.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that all religions are beautiful. It is just clerics' interpretations of them that either beautify or mar those religions.

Very well put, Finwe. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

One further thought. Why would anyone with an ounce of sanity want to believe in a God who is content condemn people to eternal damnation simply for writing, or indeed reading, a book like LotR (or Harry Potter, for that matter)?

The author sounds so extremeist with his far-fetched ideas and excessive use of the word "occult" that I'd almost be tempted to think it was supposed to be a satire, or something. It wouldn't be terribly hard to turn it into one - it almost mocks itself. But the fact that it's true...that's just sad, and a bit frightening.

But you know what I noticed...he never really specificed exactly why these books are representative of the "occult". He just says that they are, and if you read them you're the spawn of the devil, and so on and so forth. The only arguement why that I can see is that they both contain characters who are referred to as wizards and who practice what is referred to as magic. Is that it? Is that his only reasoning? Has he even read just a few pages, a chapter, of anything? If you're going to try to make an arguement, you're not going to get any where if you don't supply any kind of reasoning behind that argument.

I, for one, although I am sure they would be just as ridiculous as the rest of the writing, would like to know his exact reasons why these things are evil. Pick something from one of the books, from LotR maybe, some kind of specific event involving the "occult", and have him explain exactly why it is evil. I would like to know his reasons. Because, I'll bet, if we somehow were able to get him to do that, there wouldn't actually be any reasons there. Because it doesn't make sense.

[Bekah]

I've now calmed down, and I'm starting to laugh myself silly over your points. (Would you like the news that you're hellbound on this attractive sea-green or this gorgeous sky-blue?)

This guy has no argument. He cannot judge people without knowing what he's condemning them for. And he doesn't.

And God did say that no one has the right to judge anyone except himself.

But this guy won't listen. I'm going to pray for him, though.

One point, however:

After looking at the amount of damage that religious wars have inflicted upon our world, I'm really considering just giving up all distinctions between religions. I mean, isn't a "religion" just another way to "reach" God? Our goal is ultimately the same, it's just that we all have different methods. Why do they have to classify people based on that?

Yes. Only Christianity is the only "religion" where, instead of us being saved by good works, we are saved by grace. Instead of striving to reach God, God came to us and was incarnate in His son Jesus. We must turn from our sins, but God always loves us and will never punish us, and He always forgives us no matter what we do. It is my belief that Hell is merely existence without God, for he made all things good. Evil is merely perverted good.

You can see this not only in the Bible but in the Silmarillion.

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Sorry but I must go a bit off topic for a moment...

Yes. Only Christianity is the only "religion" where, instead of us being saved by good works, we are saved by grace.

*ahem* Judaism? (Partially, granted, but still.)

Alright, back. I'm just wondering- anywhere on that site, does it say anything about how that person was brought up? Because it must have been really strict if he ends up with views like that...

~Menelien

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Bekah]

No....Judaism you get saved by the Ten Commandments. We couldn't keep them, so God sent Jesus.

~ Elentari II

[Neferchoirwen]

*points to qoute at the bottom of her message*

I honestly don't have the heart to click on the link and read it for myself...well, there's a heaping helping of stuff from the article, so why bother bother over what else he has to say? Besides, I know exzctly where he is coming from, which is where i broke through, thank God.

I'm a Christian...been saved since I was eight, which i personally believe was stemmed from a mystical thing that runs in the family--a God thing, obviously. A few years ago, I'd say that I agree with the article says. But one thing lead to another, and i realized, that as a lit major, walking around this world with a closed mind makes me a looser.

I was thought to be a "backslider" of sorts because i read LotR and HP. My Bible group (i;m the youngest among maried yuppies though i'm still in college) thinks HP is the opposite of Jesus Christ which i think is innocently ignorant.

*once again points at the N Gaiman quote"

Evil and Good both come from the single source. Satan has no capacity to create, and Hell is created solely for himself---it's a con to think that Satan rules hell. Evil is necessary. We can't live on earth and claim to taste all of life's flavors when all we did was to eat drink and be merry. We ought to live it abundantly---experiencing life in the greatest times to the brink of depression.

I pity people with these opinions. Thnk God they can change.

[Annalaliath]

I shoed this idiot thing to my grandmother. She said he had no argument and that I should go to church rather than read stuff like this guys stupidity. Not to mention to work on my spelling and that I had a few
good point but that does not matter anyway.

What this guy is saying is that you can loose your salvation by doing things. I believe that only a will act on the part of yourself can take a person out of the hands of god. By a person will fulliy deniing God can this happen. Nothing else can cause a person to loose his/her faith and sot being a Christian. But what does he know anyway?

[Shy Hobbit]

Ok, before I post my thoughts, how on earth is My Little Pony satanic? *laughs insanely*

*gasp* Oh my, I paid money to see LotR, oh no, then I bought it, and yes, I read the horrid books that spawned the cinimatic soul-eating disasters! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I'm going to hell, AHHHH!!

Alrighty, done playing. I'm not even going to touch the subject of HP, because although I disaprove of it, I've never read it or seen the movies, so I don't have proper grounds to judge it. I don't think it's nice to knock something that you have no knowledge of [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I'm a Christian, and LotR has been one of the best things to come into my life. The storyline and characters are so inspiring. First of all, what exactly is so bad about these "damning" things? He used plenty of Scripture to back up his thoughts, but never used quotes or situations from the actual books. It saddened and angered me as I was at a Christian sporting event for kids and I overheard a parent sitting behind me say "Lord of the Rings is so much darker than Harry Potter. No kid is gonna get on a broomstick and try to fly". I had to resist the urge to turn around and say "I'm not going to put on a gold ring and try to dominate the world, either". I'm not comparing the two,I'm just stating how quick people are to bash something they don't know anything about. Yes, the story does have it's dark times indeed. But without the hard times, where is the heart and challenge of the tale? We as people all face dark times in our lives, and I can say that it only makes us stronger.

I know plenty of Christians who enjoy LotR and still have awesome relationships with God, as do I.

If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.

Ok, now supposing that is coming from a Christian, which would be my brother in Christ, truly hurts. Only God knows the heart, and there is a verse to back that up.

Speaking from a Christian point of view, let's say I want to try and win people over to my faith. Millions of people are fans, avid obsessed fans of both the works of Tolkien and JKR. The stories are dear to their heart. I don't think I'm gonna score many points by running up to them, smashing a Bible over their head and screaming "That's bad, you're going to hell!! Burn it, burn it!"

I let my 11 year old nephew watch the films, and so far he hasn't shown any signs of world domination or running around wearing black sheets. What does he do? He runs around the house with his toy Sting pretending to kill orcs. He makes fun of Saruman. He occasionaly dances around for laughs shouting "Smeagol's free!" Aragorn is his new role model.

All stories will have some element of evil, but overall good prevails.

"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil"

That came from the so called occultic wizard, by the way [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Why is it I can think of a good way to compose my words, but when I sit down to do it, I forget what I was going to say? Oh well. Some good points have already been made by all of you anyways, and I suspect the thread will be closed soon.

Heh, I'm sitting here listening to the soundtracks as I type and as I read that article. I suppose the author of that site would say I'm downright rebellious. I listen to Christian rock too [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Oh my, actually it was the people at the third day boards that got me interested in LotR. Oh my! Christian rock eventually led me to my love for Tolkien's work. Yes, it is indeed truly evil.

Just kidding, of course! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[greyhavener]

Well said, Annalaliath. I appreciate your careful documentation and well-thought out responses.

I wonder if Mr. Lusko actually read either of the works he attacks. Had he read them he would probably have been able to use quotes from each of the works to actually support his points about evil's attack on society and how the occult fascinates and ultimately consumes. In both works good triumphs over evil and in both works the heroes struggle with the temptation to pursue and misuse evil power.

Many Christians rightly fear evil and seek to avoid the Enemy of our souls. Tolkien did, indeed, criticize Lewis for delving too deeply into the inner workings of evil. Like Lewis, I believe evil unexamined is even more dangerous. Fantasy writers like Tolkien, Lewis, L'Engle, and some others make tangible the struggle between the "principalities and powers" of good and evil and the role of the Christian in these struggles.

As a Christian I don't have to agree with every aspect of the theology presented to benefit spiritually from reading their works. Unlike Mr. Lusko, I also believe reasonable minds and saved souls can disagree within the realm of Christendom. As a mother I encourage my kids to read these works to help equip to recognize evil and choose good even when the price of that choice is great.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

At first, I thought, okay this guy is intense, he was probably brought up stictly and he really believes in his argument, I respect that, even if I don't agree. Then I read this...

The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.

That's when my mind turned around and froze. This guy isn't respectable, he's just ignirant.

The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic

I happen to be a "hellbound Roman Catholic" and I am Christian. Catholics are a branch of christianity. I'm sorry but what an idiot and how dare he say that about God's children. Edit: He's not just ignirant, he's prejeduce.

Sorry, when I read that I blew my top. I'm sick of people chewing up other people because their not the same. I think he is an enemy of God if he goes around persecuting people like that. I hope he sees the light before it's too late.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

One thing I specifically looked for was a call for "sinners" like us to repent, and beg forgiveness. I notice he doesn't say anything of the sort. No, I guess once you're damned, you're damned for this guy's God.

I wonder if Mr. Lusko actually read either of the works he attacks.

Are you kidding? He says that simply reading it is a sign that you're going straight to Hell. I notice he doesn'r discriminate between someone reading it to find out if it's good or bad, or even someone who doesn't know that it's "occultic". Perhaps nowadays the world knows LOTR is about wizards, 10 years ago maybe not. Nope. This guys personal God would sure as Hell damn him if he read it to prove it's evil. No second chances.

[Idunn]

After having a short look at the text"opening our eyes" on the "evil" of LORD and Harry, I came to a conclusion, that when people really want, they can find in books literally everything. I happened to read two different articles: one from a Roman Catholics' weekly magazine, stating that LORD is a metaphorical story which praises God and instils in readers Christian values. It was well-argumented, thorough analysis of the book. For me very convincing, but utterly contradictory to "evil is around us" version. It even suggested, that LORD leads people to God. Of course, I strongly support this opinion, being Catholic myself, but I would encourage everyone to enjoy LORD, no matter which religion they belive - or not believe in. Tolkien showed us values, which can, and should be adopted by anyone.
O.K., I promised two texts. This second is extremely hilarious, maybe even more than the one we are discussing. It was written over thirty years ago, in a country where the Soviet regime ruled, soon after LORD first edition. I don't know how well you know the communistic reality, but, summerizing, Gandalf was compared to a eternally living Lenin. Certainly, this article was noting more but a propaganda, and probably the writer didn't believe a single word of it. Still, it was published in a biggest daily newspaper, seriously. So I'm not surprised that now someone claims that LORD is satanistic. People have always been distorting facts to convince others to their way of thinking. The saddest thing is that the so-called God-protector seems to believe in his opinions.
Again, it is clear that exaggeration in any matter is destructive.
I would like also point out that most of people accusing LORD of occultism, indicates wizardry as the main source of evil. Why they don't accuse authors of traditional fairy tales of being bad and brainwashing children? What about Ciderella's godmother? She was a sorceress - in addition, a good one...Maybe this tale should be forbidden...

And to Lyra Greenleaf
Don't worry about Galileo and Plato. Galileo denied believing in Copernicus theories in court, and, as a consequence, was set free. As for Plato, he run away. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Idunn ]

[Bekah]

What this guy is saying is that you can loose your salvation by doing things. I believe that only a will act on the part of yourself can take a person out of the hands of god. By a person will fulliy deniing God can this happen. Nothing else can cause a person to loose his/her faith and sot being a Christian. But what does he know anyway?

The only way you can never be forgiven is if you believe you have sinned so much you can't be forgiven - and that is the greatest form of blasphemy. It is the greatest pride and the greatest evil. Lucifer fell from Heaven because of his pride; likewise Melkor.

I have a distinct feeling that this guy's God isn't the same as my one.

~ Elentari II

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]

[Annalaliath]

My grandmother is full of wisdom, if only I could get her on here. She thinks he is ignerant and that he probably never read the books! Bla bla bla. This has been said. People like him dserve to be ignored, because the movie and the books are about: courage, self-sacrifice, loyalty, friendship, hope, faith, love, and all the rest of the Christian virtues that can be thought of.... She likes to be narrow minded but there is a limit! This guy has tunnel vision. And bad tunnel vison at that.

I think that the only unforgivable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That means rejecting any call from God and therefor calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

Other than that my Grannie( who I am on the phone with now) gave me a great verse, "I become all things to all men, that by all means I might win some." That included Christian rockers, Goths, and LOTR freaks. So on and so forth. Anyone who can find the verse is welcome to let me know where to find it.

[Shy Hobbit]

What about Ciderella's godmother? She was a sorceress - in addition, a good one...Maybe this tale should be forbidden...

Another excellent point [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] You don't often see people protesting against Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty, etc nearly as often and as harshly as they do with LotR. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because I'm sure it does, but you just don't see it that much. Some people are just that way I suppose. My sisters husband doesn't want her to watch Sabrina, Bewitched, any of those shows, because they have "witchcraft". But he on the other hand is a Star Wars geek [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] But I really do think there are bigger problems we need to deal with in the world besides attacking media.

[Ophelia]

Another interesting statement made by someone who thinks he is going to be amazed for "revealing the bad influence of this book" . O.K. So maybe he is right but l have never heard of anyone doing self harm or harming others because of what is written in the book.The worst thing that could happen is somebody being frightened by an civilian dressed up lie an elf or runing around with big and furry feat and a terrible wig.Is that evil? Huh?
Well I'm not goin' to insult someone (or atleast l do not wish to) but I have heard about ocultism spreadin' among children who want to be just like their favorite hero - Harry Potter.
If somebody has misunderstood the ideas discussed in LOTR or has started to wrongly read between words it's business of his own how he gets the main idea.But that again could be defined as the bad influence of youth .
Well it's up to you ,really, to judge are they evil or not.

[Neferchoirwen]

Welcome to the Downs Ophelia!

I like this one, which reflects my thoughts just as well:

I have a distinct feeling that the guy's God isn't the same as my one.

Loss, I can just imagine what they say about rock music.

Legalism at its finest hour indeed Annalaith, have yuo heard of the book "the real Pharisses"? (something that sounds like that) It's pretty interesting, ans it's a book that I'd like to recommend to the guy we're kinda talking about.

and I've got a question...speaking of the supernatural....what happens to people who believe in miracles? do they end up in hell?
...of course, I'm being sarcastic.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

The only way you can never be forgiven is if you believe you have sinned so much you can't be forgiven - and that is the greatest form of blasphemy.

I'm not going to agree or disagree- I just wanted to say that you didn't add a "I think" or "in my opinion" so you are also putting out your opinion as the truth. I am, of course, not saying you're doing what this guy's doing- yours is just an opinion, his is something that it seems he thinks should be forced on everybody- but it's a bit ironic. No offence please, Bekah, I don't mean anything bad about you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Another thing that I don't believe anybody mentioned which may be contributing to the idea of LotR and HP being evil is the way in which they are associated with each other. Very often, if somebody has an opinion about JRRT it will also drop onto JKR, and vice versa.

~Menelien

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Thanks for the url. The whole thing was very very funny. That's the biggest bunch of absolute nonsense I had the *fortune* or reading. At least it made me laugh (vit. C [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])
Whoever wrote this is openly insulting Roman Catholics. That was the only part where I actually got seriously angry.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Gandalf's the devil!!! Let's all get out our crucifixes!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Faenaduial]

Oh blah, blah, blah. The man is obviously one of the sort of people who have existed throughout time, who burn witches and/or books for being heretical, who killed Galileo and Plato (if I'm not confusing myself, of course ) etc.

Thank you Lyra. It amazes me how many people who call themselves Christians insist on telling everyone else how evil they are. I find that evil deeds are usually the result of peoples intolerance of others.

Did this person even read LotR. Magic and spells did not defeat evil. The destruction of the ring was accomplished through the faith of Frodo and the love of Sam for his friend; not through a muttered incantation. Likewise there are many good values in the Harry Potter books. Friendship, love, trust all matter more in the outcome of the stories than how powerful a spell they cast.

I am a Christian, teach Sunday School, read the bible and send my daughter to a Christian school. I also encouraged her to read both LotR as well as HP and other fantasy writings.

This so called Christians time could be much better spent spreading God's word through love and kindness rather than judging other people.

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Faenaduial ]

[Galenfea of Mirkwood.]

Quite apart from anything else this person is not putting up a credible argument. In fact, for the last 1/2 hour I have been drafting an E-mail to reply to this, basically pointing out where he is wrong and giving him a spot of friendly advice. For example:

It is not at all obvious that you have read the Lord of the Rings, or seen the films, and thereby give an impression that, far from being somebody stating a genuine religios belief, you merely sound like smebody who doesn't know what they are talking about. A few quotations would have convinced fans such as myself that you had read these books. No, I'm being unfair. I daresay you read LotR frequently, but just couldn't find anything suitable. You know why that was? It's because there isn't anything. I've looked.

I decided against sending him anything of the sort. I'd only have been flamed by somebody like that. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

All I know is that I am a strong Christian. One who thinks that that man is a bigot who has no idea what he is talking about.

[Yavanna228]

I suppose that I shall add my opinion into the fray. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I will begin by saying that I myself am a Christian, so what I say is influenced by what I believe.
This man is quite, em, impassioned about his opinion of LotR and HP. I cannot believe that reading LotR or HP condemns one to Hell irrevocably, nor do I believe that one who enjoys the works of Tolkien or Harry Potter is, indeed, an enemy of God. The sin of the occult is against God, but the people themselves are loved by God. Why would God have sent His Son into the world if we were His enemies? He loved us, and therefore sent His Son so that our sins may be taken away.
Another thing, not all who read LotR or HP immediately convert to Wicca or go out and sacrifice people. It is all a matter of choice. Are you going to let yourself be so absorbed in these books that you twist their intentions and do those sorts of things? The choice is yours, and yours alone. The books themselves do not make you go into the occult.
Also, this man seems to insinuate that those who let their children enjoy the occult are condemned to hell. I believe that every one's sin is their own. Guilt cannot be transmitted.
At the moment, that is all I have to say. I did not have the time to methodically and thoroughly read through the treatise, I just wrote about what jumped out at me the most. If you disagree, that's quite alright with me. Everyone's opinion is their own, and it can be changed only by their choice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I agree with Yavanna that what you do about what you read/see is what matters, not what "it" itself is. For example, if I read LotR and decided that now what I had to do would be to run away and learn spells and other things of the like, that would be my fault, not JRR Tolkien's. Also, I don't think this article is changing any lives. This guy isn't doing anything. It may inflame even more faith in those who believe the same things this guy does, but nothing else. It just gets us mad. I mean, I'm not going to suddenly repent of being Jewish/atheist and convert because of what I read here...

~Menelien

Harry Potter is not lotr. In book one Harry Potter discovers that the great magic he has against the evil Lord Voldemort is his mothers love which she left within his very skin. In book two he discovers that although he has the ability of a evil wizard he made choices which saved everyone. It is not our abilities that make us who we are it is our choices. The next two books had similar lessons not movies yet. Faith and belief is personal. Harry Potter is a childrens book. Lord of the rings is a mythology as with Boromir evil is not in Lothlorien itself evil is only in those who bring it with them.

[Voralphion]

Others have mentioned it, but LOtR does not contain magic or things of the occult. The magic refered to is not magic but something that is not understood by the narrator. This is shown in the part where Galadriel is talking to Sam at her mirror. Even the Valar aren't magic, but just have abilities that lesser races do not.
Actually there is some mention of the occult and witchcraft in LOTR and that is that there are some sorcerers. These socerers are always evil, so to me it is Tolkien rejecting the occult and saying that it is evil.
I particularly found the part where he says Catholics are not Christians quite funny.

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Voralphion ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Iarwain]

I failed to notice when belief in one truth rather than opening up the mind to contradicition and "tolerance" became biggotry. If I may, here is a segment from another discussion (PM) with a fellow downer... I fear that I offended him (it was, perhaps, a tad on the rude side) so please accept my appologies.

What you see as close mindedness is probably merely an affirmation of belief in a single thing, rather than openness to all possibilities. And, if you think about it, this is really one of the most rational things a person can do (there can, after all, be only one true solution the problem of existence). This is the idea of faith: that just as the solution to 2x+1=5 is always 4, there must be a God, merely because the entire universe suggests and proves His existence. I'm now finding it even more comical how extremely normal and expected your ideas are. Many of the people I know share this idea: that of complete tolerance of faith, lifestyle, and general manners of thinking. Yet how twisted it becomes when you try to find a purpose to life without killing oneself for lack of direction. If "all is true" then surely with the extraordinary amounts of contradictions between manners of thinking, all must be untrue. Confusion sets in. Hope is lost; life becomes mere self-gratification without any end other than death itself. We are lost...

Basically, the most fundamental proof of truth lies in one's self, that is, what one believes without normality or tolerance. Eliminate the human race and nature, and even your body; everything but your mind, and then tell me what you believe deep within. What does the depth of your existence tell you?

Your view on society is quite optimistic, and I think that its good of you to think in a positive manner, but alas, that is not my way of thinking. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Another warning about the groundbreaking work in discrimination: let us not, in our search for peace and equality (a worthy pursuit) loose sight of the need for morality among us. Also, we must be careful not to become irrationally accepting of others. You say that you think that society is becoming too moral. If I believed that society was anywhere near the point you described, I probably wouldn?t take the time to write this message. I see society becoming so incredibly amoral that it frightens me to think of what lies ahead. Though it is nothing new, it is at least with revived passion that many people are criticizing religion for claiming to have the only right answer. In my last message, I used a mathematical equation to represent the world, while x was God. I think you misunderstood the metaphor, so I?ll make a better one.

I am six-month-old child, sitting in a chair wearing clothes. It is up to me to decide how I became clothed. The first logical response would be that someone (i.e. my mother) clothed me. I am satisfied with this idea for a good while, but then I start to look around me to see what is happening. I analyze the fabric of my clothes, I take samples of the air around me, I even throw a rattle to the far end of the room to discover that a blanket, of the same fabric as my clothes, is lying there. Now I begin to like the idea of my own independence. How could someone have dressed me, I ask, when there are cloth fibers in the air, and an abundance of fabric - some of it similar to that which I am wearing - all around me. The fibers in the air, originating from various sources around me, must have been statically drawn to my body and formed these clothes that I am wearing. I, a clothed child, am a miracle of nature. Perhaps there are other clothed children out there somewhere too? And with that I deny the existence of a mother that clothed me, gave birth to me, and put me in my chair.

This child?s foolishness is quite reflective of how I view Darwinism. I dislike it because I see it as man?s means of separating himself from God. Through the idea of Evolution by Natural Selection, so many people are denying the existence of God and removing from their lives any feeling of obligation or responsibility for their actions. It?s a huge ego booster, and it largely contributes to the idea of religious equality that I so strongly refute. Another pointer: the way you view religion is that all ways are the way, and no way is the only way. Taking this into my metaphor, you would be the person that said that while several people of the same family clothed me, at the same time only one person clothed me, and still at the same time no one clothed me, and I was correct in my assumption that the clothes formed themselves. Now, when we look at an action, only one thing could have happened, lest we forsake logic for equality and say that one person and several people and no people could have done the same thing separately at the same time without the existence of the others. Or, you could also be the person that says that it doesn?t matter who is my parent that clothed me, as long as I am here and wearing my clothes, even if my mother demands that I wear my clothes in a certain way to avoid punishment.

Iarwain

P.S. Forgot to mention, but I believe this argument has already been done in full. InklingElf's "Tolkien v.v. Rowling (NOT on Equal Grounds)" It was a great thread, very much worth reading, but dead all the same.

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Lush]

If this whole thing is a joke, which I hope it is, his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy. C- on that one.

[Annalaliath]

If you read the rest of the rest or any of his other papers. They are ALL the same! They are ALL the same. They have the same structure and wording. All he did was change a few of the names and things.

[Neferchoirwen]

his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy.

Now that's credible objectivity down the drain...

They are ALL the same

And because of that, he's doomed himself.

[Annalaliath]

His literary presence will dwindel to only a trickle and he will be stopped up. He has already stopped up any of his creative energy with that idiot legalisim that he so firmly belives in, and so he will fall into nothingness and darkness. Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.

[Yavanna228]

Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.

That's a bit harsh. I think that the best arguments come not from attacking the person himself, but from contending his idea. Even then, the best way to disagree is with decorum. Again, to each his own. You are the one who chooses who you will listen to.
Peace

[Finwe]

I really think that we are all disagreeing over a matter that is in itself, very trivial if you look at it objectively. I don't think that Darwin ever meant to completely deny the existence of any deity. It is people's interpretation of his ideas that did that. Why blame him for something that his readers thought?

I don't think that it says anywhere that you cannot believe in Darwinism and believe in God at the same time. For all we know, that first spark of life, that first primeval bacterium, could have been created by God. We just don't know.

I'm sure that many of his ideas were brilliant. He just did not have the capability of communicating them to others in a sound manner. Hence, all his papers sound alike. He probably found one style that received accolades, and kept using that. Can you not deny that it is human nature to keep doing the things that we are good at? If you are an excellent writer, you will keep writing, becoming even better (in some cases). In that sense, he just kept doing the thing that he thought he was doing best.

As for people's interpretations, it has occurred throughout history. It has happened with just about every religion. Social Darwinism has been the means of justification for some of the most horrible acts of bigotry and racism that this world has seen. Some people, in fact most people, in the 1800s and earlier justified slavery by saying that Africans were a lesser-evolved race, and that it was morally right to enslave them.

Christianity has been used as justification for some of the most horrific, violent acts in the history of the world. No one can deny that the Crusades were not violent, bloody, and horrific. What religion condones bloodshed? Even Islam, which has gained the reputation of a bloodthirsty religion, preaches peace. Hinduism preaches peace. Jesus Christ himself preached peace. Buddha preached peace.

It is that interpretation that has caused all this, not the ideas themselves. Most of Darwin's theories were scientifically correct, we can't deny that. But people have used that as justification, and it is that which we must fight against. Why blame the author for what the readers do? He did not mean for those things to happen. He did not mean for his works to be used as a justification for an amoral society. It was PEOPLE that did all that.

It is people that we must fight against, not those original ideas themselves. I agree that our society is becoming hideously amoral. Perhaps it may even degrade to the point of society in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. God was scoffed at, and science was considered the best thing in the world. There was no God, no morals any more.

We must reconcile ourselves to other theories, other ways of thinking. If we keep bickering over what is right, what is sound, or what is scientifically or politically correct, to what point will we let our world degrade to? When will we realize that we are destroying our world and our society by bickering? Soon it will be too late to erase the scars caused by this bickering.

Open-mindedness is the only way that we can solve these problems. Must it be so difficult to believe in two theories at the same time? If they are so conflicting, then don't believe in them. But don't force that belief or non-belief on others. Each person is born with the right to make their own choices, and we must allow each person to make their own choices. The use of force has never accomplished anything worth fighting for, worth dying for. Only peace has done that. Peace and love have created ideals that millions of people have given up their lives for, willingly. We must use that peace and that love, not force, not hate.

[Annalaliath]

Yo, no one here should be offended by you. And by the way the twerp thing was supposed to be a joke. If that bothered anyone, which it did, then welcome to my sense of humor. I don't expect everyone to find the torturew of someone, or the visials of expoleding people and things to be found as funny. So here is my appology for my sick and twisted sense of humor.

Back to topic: I think that this person who wrote all of this is close-minded(as I stated before). Even more close minded than my grandmother! She thinks that that is a bit much. You know tunnle vision. They guy should have taken an English 102 class, that will help in the formation of both argument and analasis. ( I can't believe I actually passed). He had no argument and he read to much into things, not to mention his lac of reaserch. So to sum this whole thread up.... (wich you can't do in a sentance). This guy does not know what he is talking about. his site brings up alot of religiuos debate. He needs to work on his writing and web page skills and content. He definatly needs to read what he is bashing. And he is plainly a legalist.

Tolkien was a Christian so was Lewis. LOTR should never be compared to Harry Potter and people have a right to express their openions about both. Bla Bla Bla. I could go on for days.

Does that sum up what we were talking about here>

[Lyra Greenleaf]

So Theoric Windcaller, when you ask if you're offending anyone is it because of your positive LOTR comments or your negative HP ones? Personally I would dispute that HP is anti-Christianity/occult. There have been stories of witches and wizards for centuries, because people are fascinated by magic. Is David Blane occult?

If you don't accept HP as true, which I assume is the case for most people here, then why have a problem with it? If we limited people to writing about the truth there would be NO fantasy genre and we would have very different lives. (No BDs... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) It's completely possible to write about a world with no Christianity and still be wholeheartedly Christian. Or else the RPG rooms would be poulated with devils... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . Or if JKR is NOT Christian then that's her choice. There should no longer be conversions with the sword.

But, by the way, you didn't offend me. I simply disagree with you which is a different issue... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]