dwarfs..or elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lutfiska · 03-25-2003, 11:58 AM

Hullo!

Who do you think would have won if there had been a war between dwarfs and elves?

Afrodal Fenyar · 03-25-2003, 12:01 PM

Men
(Would probably belong to Novices and Newcomers, eh..?)

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Afrodal Fenyar ]

Iarwain · 03-25-2003, 12:02 PM

What age? Or do you mean in general with the same number of people?

I think the Elves would win. They are, after all, the firstborn children of Iluvatar. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-25-2003, 12:43 PM

This belongs in 'Novicies and Newcomers' as it is an opinion based topic.

Niluial · 03-25-2003, 12:45 PM

hmmm... I would say elves. Yea I agree being the first born of the Iluvatar, well that is my opinion....

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-25-2003, 03:42 PM

I would like the dwarves to win, however, I think that the elves would win.

Dain · 03-25-2003, 07:13 PM

If there is one thing that elves are not, it is the greatest warriors in Middle-Earth. Buruk Khazad! Khazad Ai-menu! I think on a few occaisions Tolkien notes that the dwarves are the greatest fighters around--that's not to take anything away from elves, who are clearly great warriors--but the dwarves are just better. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Remember who wins the contest at Helm's Deep? Fights off Glaurung? Almost kills Beren One-hand? Yep, we're bad alright...

But, knowing them, the elves would probably find some way of winning the war anyway... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

harlindon · 03-25-2003, 10:10 PM

OK for all you dorks, this is Novices and Newcomers, duh! Yeah. I think that Elves would win. They are a lot more faster, and kinda are at home in the woods. I guess i really depends where the fighting took place. But anyways I think that Elves would still win. They are cooler than dwarfs, even though dwarfs are cool too.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-25-2003, 10:53 PM

harlindon:

Quote:

OK for all you dorks, this is Novices and Newcomers, duh!

Please refrain from insults, and insulting gestures. At that time when people were saying it should be moved to Novices and Newcomers, it was in the Books section. The good old moderater moved it here, where it belongs and closed the thread that was in the Books section.

Now that I think about it, I think the dwarves might have a better chance, the only problem is the elves have good archers, and two elven rings of course, but does that count (the rings)?

Selmo · 03-26-2003, 04:24 AM

This topic should not have been moved from the Books Forum. The answer to the question is to be found in The Silmarilion.

The only war fought between Elves and Dwarves resulted in victory for the Elves, but at great cost.

Thingol employed dwarves to set the Silmaril that Beren cut from Morgoth's crown in a necklace. They took the Silmaril, killed Thingol and fought their way out of Doriath but were completely destroyed in an ambush by Green Elves on their way home.

With the death of Thingol, Melian left Middle-earth. Doriath became vulnerable and was destroyed by Feanor's sons.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-26-2003, 04:46 AM

Moderator's comment to harlindon and all others interested:
Please be aware that threads may be moved from one forum to another without notice. If you begin posting mid-topic, you may not realize that its location has changed.

To Selmo and all others interested:
Easy discussions of the books that involve opinion more than in-depth book evidence do belong on this forum. After all, Tolkien's works are our theme on every forum here!

Lutfiska · 03-26-2003, 01:46 PM

It wasn´t nice of you to move this to novices & newcomers. It´s a question that as selmo sais can be answered by reading "sil" (and not being too stupid).
If you move this topic I can see alot of other topics that doesn´t belong in "The Books".

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lutfiska ]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-26-2003, 04:52 PM

Quote:

It wasn´t nice of you to move this to novices & newcomers. It´s a question that as selmo sais can be answered by reading "sil" (and not being too stupid).
If you move this topic I can see alot of other topics that doesn´t belong in "The Books".

Why don't you just drop the issue. It doesn't really matter which section of the two it's in anyways. Estelyn Telcontar is the moderator and she has the final say. She does a lot of hard work around here and I wish that people would show a little more respect. Just because the question can be answered by reading a book doesn't mean it belongs in the Books section. And as she said,

Quote:

Easy discussions of the books that involve opinion more than in-depth book evidence do belong on this forum.

Which means it is where it should be. And why are you saying that it wasn't nice to move it. Why isn't it nice? Moving it is actually a good thing. You don't have to take a thread being moved as a personal insult or anything, all that's happening is just the moving of a thread. It just keeps everything more organized.

Lutfiska · 03-27-2003, 02:02 AM

But I can´t I have an opinion at least? I know it´s the moderators decision but i think i can tell them what I think too... but anyway, If we do this without rings, same number of dwarfs and elves.. no forest, no mountain or cave. Open grass and the elves then can fire some arrows but I think that the dwarfs could do it even then. When they get close I think that they would chrush´em all [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]:

Gil-Galad · 03-27-2003, 08:02 AM

to me depends where they fight if elves goes into lets say Erebor dwarves will probaly have he advance but if dwarves attacked elves then they would lose and remember the ents hate the dwarves so evles and ents whould join together

Lutfiska · 03-27-2003, 01:11 PM

well... this is kind of a stupid thread cause I haven´t clerified the circumstances... Let´s say a place like the one where isildur and company killed sauron (the movie-place)... And only dwarfs and elves, no other races

Deathwail · 03-27-2003, 03:18 PM

There is not enough info on Dwarves to really say what their numbers where,but if one Balrog (Durins Bane) can boot them out of their main home then the Elves of the First Age would wipe the floor with them.It would not even be a fight.One Elf Lord is a match for a Balrog yet a realm of Dwarves lose to one (a spineless Balrog at that who hides in a hole from the Valar)

But this Thread is where it should be Lutfiska not because its bad or anything just that it really does not draw from the facts of Tolkiens books so dont be upset it was moved. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Herudaeglin · 03-27-2003, 03:40 PM

I belive it is what age, where the fight takes place, and what sundering of the elves fight the dwarves. Like if the Noldor in teh beginning of the first age of the sun in a forest/field region would probably win because they just survived the passing of the Helcaraxe(dunno about spelling) or crossed by boat after being in the Light of the 2 tress for a LONG while. Like in the Silmarillion where the Noldor following Feanor beat up all the orcs when they arived in ME dunno if this is the true quote but 'they fight fiercly with the light of Aman still in their eyes'.

Deathwail · 03-27-2003, 04:02 PM

Yes agree it would all matter on what age this took place.

Yavanna · 03-27-2003, 05:06 PM

Well, with the dwarves making mithril armor for themselves (which saved Frodo when he was stabbed with a spear and hit with arrows) I would think they might have an advantage- defense wise, anyway.

Although it really would depend on the age and the place the battle took place.

Deathwail · 03-27-2003, 05:26 PM

Come on folks it took all of the might of Morgoth to over throw Gondolin yet one Balrog can boot all the Dwarves out of Dwarrowdelf,a coward Balrog at that.

Sorry but i dont see anything that points to Dwarves being all that good at warfare.

And dont start on how brave Dwarves are cause we see how Gimli fell apart on the Paths of the Dead.When the Nazgul came face to face with Glorfindel it was the Nazgul that where scared not the Elf Lord and i think its safe to say Nazgul where a tad more scary then some ghosts hiding in a cave. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-27-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

yet one Balrog can boot all the Dwarves out of Dwarrowdelf,a coward Balrog at that.

Hmmm, a coward Balrog? Are you sure? Don't you remember how Logolas almost made lemonade in his pants after the realized that they were about to face a Balrog? And wasn't that supposed to be a pretty tough and powerful Balrog? And even Gandalf knew how powerful it was, not only that, he had one difficult struggle with it and barely defeated it. Don't try comparing Gondolin and Dwarrowdelf. They were not really the same type of battle grounds and besides, the Balrog came from within. I don't think you give the dwarves enough credit, Deathwail. And in the paths of the dead, Gimli doesn't know what he would fight against if a ghost were to appear or something. If he went against the Nazgul, I think that he would not be as scared since he does know what a Nazgul is. You fear what you don't know. And besides, dwarves are great fighters. One cornered dwarf can fight pretty ferocious you know. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Deathwail · 03-27-2003, 05:50 PM

Well Gimli did drop his Axe when he saw Durinbane,yet did Ecthelion hide when he saw Gothmog? Heck no he layed into that Balrog for all he was worth and took him down.

Really though i am just having a bit for fun with all you Dwarf fans,no real disrespect meant by it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-27-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

... yet one Balrog can boot all the Dwarves out of Dwarrowdelf ...

I think that the Balrog had assistance from the odd Orc or two ... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

As well as numbers and the nature of battleground, matters such as morale, quality of leadership and how well equipped they were would come into it.

All things being equal, I think it would be difficult to choose between the two ...

... My, this fence is comfortable [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Deathwail · 03-27-2003, 08:08 PM

Nope far as i read the Dwarves where in full control of Moria intill they woke the Balrog,so no Orcs there yet.And by coward Balrog i mean this same Balrog proved time again he would rather run then die in a fight as we see when he fought Gandalf and during the War of Wrath.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Mordor_Queen · 03-28-2003, 07:20 AM

i dunno cos the dwarves are really good with their axes and elves are really good with bows so i guess it would be a draw! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Lutfiska · 03-28-2003, 08:44 AM

elves would win, but dwarfs are richer so they would hire orcs and baddies to slay´em all [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] sounds good doesn´t it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

akhtene · 03-28-2003, 07:40 PM

If someone totally ignorant at war matters may have a say, I'd vote for elves.
Elves are excellent archers, while dwarves (for what I know) are good fighters only at close range - with their axes and swords.
Elves ride horses,which gives their army speed and manoeuver.
I believe elves should feel comfortable in caves (at least they used to live in cave cities), whereas dwarves in a forest ... should be like an oliphant in a china (?) shop.
Elves can make (or at least have a supply) of enchanted weapons.
Elves can probably 'employ' birds and beasts as their allys and scouts.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] However, Lutfiska's idea of dwarves hiring baddies is worth concidering... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lutfiska · 03-30-2003, 01:27 PM

Ye... Go dwarfs [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

03-31-2003, 03:38 AM

well..... oh i kno the elves would prolly win but it would be nice to see the dwaves in their moment of victory. *thinks about how they would celebrate and chuckles*

.........lol

Lutfiska · 03-31-2003, 07:17 AM

lol, funny boy [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (how did you do these partysmilies?)

03-25-2003, 11:58 AM	#1
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	dwarfs..or elves? Hullo! Who do you think would have won if there had been a war between dwarfs and elves? __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-25-2003, 12:01 PM	#2
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Men (Would probably belong to Novices and Newcomers, eh..?) [ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Afrodal Fenyar ] __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

03-25-2003, 12:02 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	What age? Or do you mean in general with the same number of people? I think the Elves would win. They are, after all, the firstborn children of Iluvatar. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-25-2003, 12:43 PM	#4
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	This belongs in 'Novicies and Newcomers' as it is an opinion based topic. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

03-25-2003, 12:45 PM	#5
Niluial Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In the darkness of white Posts: 601	hmmm... I would say elves. Yea I agree being the first born of the Iluvatar, well that is my opinion.... __________________ Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless. My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog My Magical Site

03-25-2003, 03:42 PM	#6
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	I would like the dwarves to win, however, I think that the elves would win. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

03-25-2003, 07:13 PM	#7
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	If there is one thing that elves are not, it is the greatest warriors in Middle-Earth. Buruk Khazad! Khazad Ai-menu! I think on a few occaisions Tolkien notes that the dwarves are the greatest fighters around--that's not to take anything away from elves, who are clearly great warriors--but the dwarves are just better. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Remember who wins the contest at Helm's Deep? Fights off Glaurung? Almost kills Beren One-hand? Yep, we're bad alright... But, knowing them, the elves would probably find some way of winning the war anyway... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

03-25-2003, 10:10 PM	#8
harlindon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 42	OK for all you dorks, this is Novices and Newcomers, duh! Yeah. I think that Elves would win. They are a lot more faster, and kinda are at home in the woods. I guess i really depends where the fighting took place. But anyways I think that Elves would still win. They are cooler than dwarfs, even though dwarfs are cool too. __________________ Naneth lîn mant hû nîn

03-26-2003, 04:24 AM	#10
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	This topic should not have been moved from the Books Forum. The answer to the question is to be found in The Silmarilion. The only war fought between Elves and Dwarves resulted in victory for the Elves, but at great cost. Thingol employed dwarves to set the Silmaril that Beren cut from Morgoth's crown in a necklace. They took the Silmaril, killed Thingol and fought their way out of Doriath but were completely destroyed in an ambush by Green Elves on their way home. With the death of Thingol, Melian left Middle-earth. Doriath became vulnerable and was destroyed by Feanor's sons.

03-26-2003, 04:46 AM	#11
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	Moderator's comment to harlindon and all others interested: Please be aware that threads may be moved from one forum to another without notice. If you begin posting mid-topic, you may not realize that its location has changed. To Selmo and all others interested: Easy discussions of the books that involve opinion more than in-depth book evidence do belong on this forum. After all, Tolkien's works are our theme on every forum here! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-26-2003, 01:46 PM	#12
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	It wasn´t nice of you to move this to novices & newcomers. It´s a question that as selmo sais can be answered by reading "sil" (and not being too stupid). If you move this topic I can see alot of other topics that doesn´t belong in "The Books". [ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lutfiska ] __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-27-2003, 02:02 AM	#14
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	But I can´t I have an opinion at least? I know it´s the moderators decision but i think i can tell them what I think too... but anyway, If we do this without rings, same number of dwarfs and elves.. no forest, no mountain or cave. Open grass and the elves then can fire some arrows but I think that the dwarfs could do it even then. When they get close I think that they would chrush´em all [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]: __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-27-2003, 08:02 AM	#15
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,733	to me depends where they fight if elves goes into lets say Erebor dwarves will probaly have he advance but if dwarves attacked elves then they would lose and remember the ents hate the dwarves so evles and ents whould join together __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

03-27-2003, 01:11 PM	#16
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	well... this is kind of a stupid thread cause I haven´t clerified the circumstances... Let´s say a place like the one where isildur and company killed sauron (the movie-place)... And only dwarfs and elves, no other races __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-27-2003, 03:18 PM	#17
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	There is not enough info on Dwarves to really say what their numbers where,but if one Balrog (Durins Bane) can boot them out of their main home then the Elves of the First Age would wipe the floor with them.It would not even be a fight.One Elf Lord is a match for a Balrog yet a realm of Dwarves lose to one (a spineless Balrog at that who hides in a hole from the Valar) But this Thread is where it should be Lutfiska not because its bad or anything just that it really does not draw from the facts of Tolkiens books so dont be upset it was moved. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

03-27-2003, 03:40 PM	#18
Herudaeglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12	I belive it is what age, where the fight takes place, and what sundering of the elves fight the dwarves. Like if the Noldor in teh beginning of the first age of the sun in a forest/field region would probably win because they just survived the passing of the Helcaraxe(dunno about spelling) or crossed by boat after being in the Light of the 2 tress for a LONG while. Like in the Silmarillion where the Noldor following Feanor beat up all the orcs when they arived in ME dunno if this is the true quote but 'they fight fiercly with the light of Aman still in their eyes'. __________________ 'Where in the nine hells did you ever find the notion that I would fight fair?' -Drizzt Do'Urden, The Crystal Shard (R.A. Salvator)

03-27-2003, 04:02 PM	#19
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Yes agree it would all matter on what age this took place. __________________ He who arises in Might.

03-27-2003, 05:06 PM	#20
Yavanna Newly Deceased Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Right here... Posts: 10	Well, with the dwarves making mithril armor for themselves (which saved Frodo when he was stabbed with a spear and hit with arrows) I would think they might have an advantage- defense wise, anyway. Although it really would depend on the age and the place the battle took place.

03-27-2003, 05:26 PM	#21
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Come on folks it took all of the might of Morgoth to over throw Gondolin yet one Balrog can boot all the Dwarves out of Dwarrowdelf,a coward Balrog at that. Sorry but i dont see anything that points to Dwarves being all that good at warfare. And dont start on how brave Dwarves are cause we see how Gimli fell apart on the Paths of the Dead.When the Nazgul came face to face with Glorfindel it was the Nazgul that where scared not the Elf Lord and i think its safe to say Nazgul where a tad more scary then some ghosts hiding in a cave. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

03-27-2003, 05:50 PM	#23
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Well Gimli did drop his Axe when he saw Durinbane,yet did Ecthelion hide when he saw Gothmog? Heck no he layed into that Balrog for all he was worth and took him down. Really though i am just having a bit for fun with all you Dwarf fans,no real disrespect meant by it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

03-27-2003, 08:08 PM	#25
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Nope far as i read the Dwarves where in full control of Moria intill they woke the Balrog,so no Orcs there yet.And by coward Balrog i mean this same Balrog proved time again he would rather run then die in a fight as we see when he fought Gandalf and during the War of Wrath. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

03-28-2003, 07:20 AM	#26
Mordor_Queen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mordor Posts: 53	i dunno cos the dwarves are really good with their axes and elves are really good with bows so i guess it would be a draw! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you shall have a Queen! Not Dark but beatiful! All shall love me and despair!"-Galadriel

03-28-2003, 08:44 AM	#27
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	elves would win, but dwarfs are richer so they would hire orcs and baddies to slay´em all [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] sounds good doesn´t it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-28-2003, 07:40 PM	#28
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	If someone totally ignorant at war matters may have a say, I'd vote for elves. Elves are excellent archers, while dwarves (for what I know) are good fighters only at close range - with their axes and swords. Elves ride horses,which gives their army speed and manoeuver. I believe elves should feel comfortable in caves (at least they used to live in cave cities), whereas dwarves in a forest ... should be like an oliphant in a china (?) shop. Elves can make (or at least have a supply) of enchanted weapons. Elves can probably 'employ' birds and beasts as their allys and scouts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] However, Lutfiska's idea of dwarves hiring baddies is worth concidering... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

03-30-2003, 01:27 PM	#29
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	Ye... Go dwarfs [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-31-2003, 03:38 AM	#30
ElephantTIG&Co Guest Posts: n/a	well..... oh i kno the elves would prolly win but it would be nice to see the dwaves in their moment of victory. thinks about how they would celebrate and chuckles .........lol

03-31-2003, 07:17 AM	#31
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	lol, funny boy [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (how did you do these partysmilies?) __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war