Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXV: On the Borders of Mirkwood Planning Thread

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Originally Posted by HS

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

In all fairness though, I think it's so frustrating when roles are not revealed upon death. It's blind chaos.


I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Or that, yes, that's an important detail, and that sounds like an about right correction to make up for it. (Because, unfairness to people in "right timezones" aside, if it was just about the one who sends it, people could also use it as meta-thinking for who might the living Wolves still be, and such.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

That sounds 200% abuse-able and I can absolutely see what one could do with that.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

I like the idea of there being some quota for the dead thread before the ability kicks in. Otherwise I also support the idea of all the dead WWs deciding amongst themselves (via Nightly PMs, presumably) and just sending their pick to the Mod, the same way a Night kill would be done.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

Yep! Welcome. I just meant I'm in no particular rush to get started. All of June is open for me. First weekend of July I have a wedding (so far hasn't been cancelled). But I'm not in the wedding party, so I'd still be available.

And as far as DL's go. the DL in Nog's game seemed to work well for everyone. I'm completely available after 4pm EST (8pm GMT) every day. So, I'm flexible there to have it then or a little later if that's better.

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?



Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

Welcome BG :-D. G55 answered those questions on the Medium. And the Nightmare Wolf (NW) still hammering out the details.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.


Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

Haha, well in that case I would say it shall be when Dol Guldur is known as Amon Lanc

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

My thinking is to be empowered to be a Medium, and a "voice for the dead" it would mean a majority from the dead. I considered your suggestion that dead wolves vote would count as 2 in the dead thread, but thought that might give them too much power in impacting the Day lynch. And a Medium could be chosen by essentially the dead wolf (and not the majority of the dead). After already giving the dead wolf, in the form of the NW, a power to effect the gifteds at Night, I steered away from allowing them the potential power to pick a Medium.

I mean technically they could still have that potential, but it would just be a little harder. It would also give the chance that there would be no Medium, and therefor no living players vote gets doubled.

I'm not sure if that would make it too restricting for the dead innocents. But I have read the very first WW game on the Downs, where the Barrow-wight allowed retractable votes. Once a player reached a majority the voting stopped and the player was lynched right away. I won't allow retractable votes in the Living thread, that's just too much of a headache.

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by Huey

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

When I run fantasy sports leagues I put everyone into a randomizer and click randomize 10 times to determine the draft order. I was going to follow the same, just put all the wolves in the randomizer, click 10 times and whatever name was first would be the one dead. But I do like this idea of who sends the night kill in better.

I also am not opposed to the wolves deciding amongst themselves and sending me who gets sacrificed if caught in the BH's trap. So, let's go with that, the wolves can also PM me who gets "sacrificed" to the trap.

----

On the Nightmare Werewolf (NW), thanks for all the input and I wanted to put out the basics, so we could all get a discussion going on the possibilities and potential of the role. To kind of combine the options from the discussion so far...here:

Option 1

The NW only goes into effect when 2 wolves have died. They are able to Privately communicate during the Night phase and PM me the name of the player they decide to haunt

I will only PM a gifted to alert them their ability was blocked by the dead wolves

Option 2

I'm really intrigued by Lottie's, Rikae's and Greenie's points that it might be beneficial for an ordo to find out they were the target of the NW haunts. So..

-There is 1 NW pre-determined and informed to the entire pack who the NW is. Which would make for some interesting dynamics for the pack to decide on potentially sacrificing...etc

In order to put some risk into the potential reward. When dead, the NW would not have to haunt someone every night. But if they choose to, regardless of the role, that player will be notified via PM from me that their sleep was haunted by the NW. This I can see would limit the power of the NW, that I feared could happen if allowed every night once a wolf was dead.

I really like the strategy in this option, because as Rikae said it could give the ordo "haunted" a new perspective. Also, there would be a risk for the NW to decide to haunt someone every single night. Of course the player can claim whatever they want, that they suffered from nightmares...etc It could be a bluff, a lie to attract the living wolves to kill them.. The potential is fascinating.

The only thing that would be forbidden is for of course the player to reveal or directly say "Boro sent me a PM saying the NW haunted me." That would result in the player's immediate mod-fire and removal. But, I know we're all good sports about not cheating the game.

[Galadriel55]

I am starting to mentally trip over the words "haunted" and "hunted".

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In order to put some risk into the potential reward. When dead, the NW would not have to haunt someone every night. But if they choose to, regardless of the role, that player will be notified via PM from me that their sleep was haunted by the NW. This I can see would limit the power of the NW, that I feared could happen if allowed every night once a wolf was dead.

I really like the strategy in this option, because as Rikae said it could give the ordo "haunted" a new perspective. Also, there would be a risk for the NW to decide to haunt someone every single night. Of course the player can claim whatever they want, that they suffered from nightmares...etc It could be a bluff, a lie to attract the living wolves to kill them.. The potential is fascinating.

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

I haven't thought this through in a ton of detail, but at first glance, it seems like it would be pretty balanced in terms of not creating tons of known innocents.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

I see this being a debate between haunting to block a suspected gifted and haunting to mislead innocents into thinking they were selected because they were suspected as a gifted. And something that can be used by the NW to mislead the village, but also used by villagers to distract both dead and living wolves from the real gifteds. There is potential for it to balance out, but without testing it out it's hard to say which way it might topple. The big pro argument I have for revealing haunts is that it would make the game more fun for ordos, because it gives them more feedback / insight in the game, and more interaction with the special roles.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Boro

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Thoughts on that?

That depends on whether you want to block the possibility of the living and dead using the empowered votes to send messages rather than just empower a vote. I could see them setting something up day one like "after the seer dies, this vote means X and that means Y", and that sort of thing tends to take excitement and suspense out of the game.
If you wait to reveal the empowered vote at deadline it could help avoid that situation.

[Macalaure]

Reporting for duty!

Is there a cobbler in this game? If not, there is now.

Originally Posted by Rikae

That depends on whether you want to block the possibility of the living and dead using the empowered votes to send messages rather than just empower a vote. I could see them setting something up day one like "after the seer dies, this vote means X and that means Y", and that sort of thing tends to take excitement and suspense out of the game.
If you wait to reveal the empowered vote at deadline it could help avoid that situation.

This was the first thing that came to my mind here. If the dead are able to communicate a name every day, regardless of what the intended function of it is, they are able to communicate the wolf dreams of a dead seer. The seer, in turn, does not have to worry about leaving hints about their dreams, making them so much harder to spot for the wolves.

What if the living aren't explicitly told who the medium is and instead only the vote count is revealed? Would that be better or worse?