Tolkien themes (2)

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I think that there are some themes that Tolkien embedded into his works. Here's one: lonliness is a horrible feeling. I thought of this when I was reading a thread about Arwen. I thought of a connection between her and gollum. If you think about it, they both lived for a long period of time. Arwen was an elf so she had immortality and lived for 3000+ years (I don't know for sure so correct me if I'm wrong) and gollum, due to the ring, had lived far beyond his time for I don't know how long. Both knew what it was like to be alone.

Well, love and friendship are two different things, but loniness deals with both. Arwen might have had family and friends around her, but she didn't have a lover. She had been alone all her life until Aragorn. Gollum once had friends but he lost them all. He lived alone, with no one at all around him, spare the encounters like Bilbo. The only thing he knew was himself and the ring. He knows what it's like to be alone for so long.

Now, I wonder if Arwen knew of gollum, and the lonliness he suffered before she chose to give up her mortality?

Well, this is sort of underdeveloped, sorry. But, expand if you want, and try to develop it yourself.

[Nenya]

Great topic, Willie. Interesting, that Arwen-Gollum connection.

What I wondered, was, didn't Frodo too recognise his own loneliness in Gollum? He was of course alone when bearing the Ring, even with Sam by his side. But I think that his feeling of "otherness" begun way before.
He was always a bit of a weirdo (what a horrible word) amongst hobbits. He was, afterall, a half-Brandybuck orphand who was well educated, spoke elvish, had strange friends (as Gandalf), and most of all: was extreamely curious about the world outside the Shire. Those things definetly make you an outsider in the world of hobbits. Yes, he did have friends, but none of them as close as Bilbo was. I don't think any of them quite understood Frodo as he did. And Bilbo too eventually "abandoned" Frodo, leaving him once again lonely for many years to come.
And then, along came the Ring. And we all know that "to be a ringbearer is to be alone".
I think that his loneliness, being different, in a way was both the blessing and the curse of Frodo's life. It allowed him to rise above an avridge hobbit, to the world of wizards, elves and greater wisdom. And eventually, he was chosen/destined to bear the One Ring because of that. But because of what he was, he was never going to live an easy, happy life as just one of the merry little hobbits.
This, in my opinion, was one of the many things that made Frodo understand Gollum more than Sam did. Besides being Ringbearers, they both had almost always been alone.

Phew. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Please, feel free to comment.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes, very good point. I think a big reason Frodo saw his loniness in gollum is because he had the ring for a while and was beginning to change because of the ring. When he saw gollum, he knew that the ring had done that, and he knew that he could become like gollum too. He knew what gollum went through and he knew how much of a burden the ring is. So yes, there is a definate connnection between Gollum and Frodo and it doesn't just stop at lonliness.

I think that Sam might have been lonly too. I think it was when Frodo left, losing a friend is very hard, especially when you're still friends but have to be separated. Sam didn't like lonliness I think. He sort of hung around Frodo and became attached to him. I'm sure if he didnt have a family wating at home, he would have gone too.

[littlemanpoet]

It seems to me that Elves are never really alone. Think of Legolas when he waited for Aragorn and Gimli to get enough sleep. He was communing with the stars, reliving memories as if they were real. Arwen could commune with whatever natural things there were around her, and, of course, with other Elves at Rivendell and Lorien. Her true loneliness came when Aragorn died. She had cut herself off from all other Elves, and had nothing left but her husband and her children. No wonder whe gave up her life.

Gollum wasn't merely lonely. He was ostracized, isolated, cut off from everyone else already (except for Deagol), and the Ring only made this worse. At least Frodo always had Sam, though, as you pointed out, to bear the Ring is to be alone.

[ambi]

It also shows what people do when they are lonely.
Elves can live in the world of memories, its almost like real life for them, as Legolas told Gimli.

Smeagol on the other hand, due to his isolation and loneliness develops a split personality(or conscience). Its almost as if Gollum and smeagol are two people.

[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: ambi ]

[Gorwingel]

Then another thing that I think added to Frodo loneliness was that even when he rose above the level of every other hobbit that ever lived, it still was not reconized in the only place that really mattered to him, the Shire.
Because when he comes back from his long journey, the scouring of the shire happens, and Merry and Pippin become very famous. And Frodo is kind of ignored, because what he did that made him well known did not happen in the Shire, it happened in the rest of Middle Earth, and the Hobbits really did not care about that, sadly. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
This also makes me remember something that some others have talked about, Sam is trying to reach out to Frodo many times, during the journey, but they just can't seem to come together, especially at the end. These are some of the most bittersweet parts of the story, you want them to live happily but they just can't.

[littlemanpoet]

Yet Frodo and Sam loved each
other, even as
Sam could not reach
across the chasm
caused by the Ring
and the wounds it caused.
Into Frodo's suffering
Sam cannot draw,
yet the folk most dear
to Frodo give him care.
And so the bitter
turns bitter
sweet.
And that is meet.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[drigel]

Speaking of themes....

Littlemanpoet touched on an intriuging theme which is: Tolkiens approach to time travel, and the way he used Elves to demonstrate his take on "timelessnes" - and see the influences of his reading "An Experiment With Time" by J.W. Dunne.

[akhtene]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie wrote:

I think a big reason Frodo saw his loniness in gollum is because he had the ring for a while and was beginning to change because of the ring.

I'd say yes and no. Of course the Ring is to blame for the changes that they underwent but not only the Ring.
Remember, the Ring responded to the power of the bearer. IMO the same way it responded to his personality. I mean, Smeargol had never benn a darling, so that's what he 'grew' into. And his developing split personality - that was the only way to speak with someone without attempting to eat him [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Back to changes caused by the Ring. Frodo's loneliness - weren't its seeds in him even before the quest? He was attached to Bilbo, but to nobody else in particular. He was paying attention to too many scary stories.

Why then wasn't Bilbo affected the same way as Gollum or Frodo? (I'm not speaking of the age now) He didn't have a wife, but he adopted a young relative, had lots of friends. He kept himself busy writing a book, doing translations, telling stories... He seemed to be drawing people and life itself to him, while Frodo was kind of pushing them aside.
So it was not the change, but I'd say singling out and highlighting the most essential features of an individuum.

BTW. remember Sam, who by putting on the Ring managed to save his master instead of running away with it (as Smeagorl would probably have done)

[doug*platypus]

In the FOTR movie (don't bite me - hear me out!), Galadriel says that "To bear a Ring of Power is to be alone." Do you think that the filmmakers inadvertently stumbled an a Tolkien Truth?

Gollum and Frodo were certainly alone. Sam was a ringbearer only when he was alone, so that you could possibly say that it symbolises or compensates for his loneliness. Elrond lost his wife, but was he ever alone? Galadriel had a husband (although no real evidence is there of how their relationship was), but pined for the Blessed Land.

The Nine Riders ended up not alone, but in hardly the sort of company who would make you feel loved or welcome. And as wraiths doomed to walk the world enslaved, they must have had some feelings of loneliness. As for the Dwarf lords, women are seemingly never a priority in the lives of Dwarves. But Thrain, the only Dwarven ringbearer we really know of, had his family around him until the very last, when he ended up faring into the wilds (on his own or with one companion?). In the end he didn't die alone, since Gandalf was there.

Do all ringbearers exhibit some form of loneliness, and if so is it in part due to their owneship of a Ring of Power?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Doug, for a most fascinating discussion on the Ring and its symbolic meaning, see The One Ring? - my all-time favorite thread!

[littlemanpoet]

Littlemanpoet touched on an intriuging theme which is: Tolkiens approach to time travel, and the way he used Elves to demonstrate his take on "timelessnes" - and see the influences of his reading "An Experiment With Time" by J.W. Dunne.

I did?

Oh! Yes! I guess I did.

Boy! That's a ways back, I think.

Drigel, what thread did you resurrect that from? I forget....

akhtene:
I guess I don't see Frodo
in quite the same light you do.
Bilbo's friends were made up
of adventurous young pups
like Pippin and Sam and Merry,
and others, who were every
bit Frodo's friends. You might
say in fact, that Bilbo quite
caused a revolution in the Shire
by creating strong desire
for adventure in young hobbits,
against the judgement of their parents.

Doug platypus:
I think you're onto something,
though with the Elven rings
it seems less so than with the rest.
They were blessed
with a tendency toward commnuning
with any living thing
whereas Dwarves were apt to moon
alone over gold and runes
while men craved power
and thus became dour
and cut off from friends
on whom they might have depended.
Still, to bear a Ring or power
is a task most dire,
and whether Elf or Huorn, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
a Ring can only be worn
on one finger's bone; [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
so, one bearer alone.

[akhtene]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, littlemanpoet for the verse

Still I believe that Frodo was a bit of a loner even before the Ring started its work on him. He was by no means a recluse,but seemed to feel quite comfortable on long lonely walks.
And he himself didn't think of taking any cimpanions with him. You may argue that he believed the journey to be dangerous. But then, why didn't he try to dissuade them after they stood up?..

[littlemanpoet]

Akhtene, well argued.
I concur Frodo was a loner,
apt to take on more
responsibility
than necessary...

[drigel]

littlemanpoet

No ressurrections lately sorry if I brought an old subject up (newbie) hehe

Its an obscure theme admittedly, but it seems that elvish "sleep" (for lack of a better word)is really an internal time travel of sorts. The theme of "elvish time" and how they fight to preserve what they can as they live in ME is intriguing.

[littlemanpoet]

Drigel: Maybe I didn't bring Dunne up here, but I DID read about him. You did, too? Cool! I don't think too many people have. I found it quite intersting how much of an influence this science fiction type idea had on Lewis and Tolkien, eh?

[drigel]

littlemanpoet,

Yea i LOVE Lewis stuff too. What was it? They decided Lewis was to write a story about space travel and JRRT was to write about time travel (Lost Road?)?...

I think the best SF out there is the classic stuff (Asimov, et el). Pre - techno babble hehe era you could call it. Still technical and ambitious, yet not bogged down by the "isms" of the technical jargons of the day. "Timeless" you could call it.....
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