why don't people like arwen in the movie?

[Vardamar]

Just to clear things up I'm not telling anyone what to think, Im just stating my opionion. The freedom to think what ever you want is the most important freedom out there.

[Tar-Palantir]

Rindowen, do you really think these people are scared of a hornet's nest??? No one is trying to stifle your opinion. But to say things like "how many of you are making your dreams come true?" What on Middle-Earth does that have to do with it? It's insulting and belittling. How does that comment or saying people are "judging him for trying to make a living" or the comment akin to "make my own movie", how do they defend the films or PJ? They don't. They are just broad-based remarks that don't tackle any of the details. <P>You summed it up yourself in your first post: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Both TFoTR and TTT were INCREDIBLY wonderful films... if you simply divorce yourselves from the details of the books!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Details! Details! We don't need no stinkin' details! Throw it all out I say! But for goodness sakes keep Arwen cause she's purrrrddy... <p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[lindil]

Very good Tar-Palntir! [except the arwen part of course ]. <P>Rindowen:<P>re: the editors/pi$$ comment, it is an old saw I learned in jouranlism class, it makes reference to editors [ or director/writers in theis case] having the uneviable tendency to change things from what they really are so that they appeal to the editor's own preferences and bias.<P>If you want to see that as an attack, fine. I see it as valid criticism of someone who took what everyone here would probably agree is the most important book of the 20th century and changed things in order not just in order to make it fit and conform to an ancceptable and profitable movie format [which as I have argued, given who he had and how much money was involved was a {hard - earned} given], but began to make changes becuaes he seemed to think they were 'better versions' of the story.<P>I will admit, I don not ascribe to all of Willie's thoughts that he was selling out. I am saddened that he felt the need to try and imrpove the plot and characters. That was a vast mistake, which I can only see coming from hubris or pride that he really knew better than Tolkien how the characters and storyline all worked together.<P>One final word on the rules.<P>They are very general: do not flame or attack other posters.<P>However in the Movie forum because so many times people have said something on the order of " well let me see you make a better movie" or "well when you make one yourself let me know, then I will listen to what you have to say" These types of negating statements are by nature absurd to a discussion forum.<P> One is in effect telling the critic that they must sped 270 million dollars [ more or less] to have a reply that is worth anything. Now admittedly what you said way back on page 2 -<BR>"You can all sit here and talk about how you would have filmed this differently.. well, then DO it! I challenge you! "<P>was just short of that, but it was said again explicitly a few posts later if I recall correctly, by another poster.<P>Estelyn [in a thread I tried to find but could not] said essentially that telling a fellow board member that they had to make their own movie in order to criticize it was not allowed, as also was the rejoinder of inisisting people stop criticizing the movie.<P>Both have been repeated so many times that the Moderator [ and BW himself] have asked for those specific actions to stop.<P>If you have any doubts, feel free to ask them to address it on this thread.<P>So yes, we all entitled to our opinion here, and I often learn asmuch from opinions I do not share as one's I do, and I am sure that is true for many of you, however, the one opinion not allowed is negating another's right to an speak out in a civilized manner on the appropriate threads.<P>that is the last I will say on any posting manners I am not the Moderator of this Forum, I and other older members and Forum leaders do from time to time speak on other forums, especially poor Estelyn's because I would like her to be able to spend some hof her time here at the downs enjoying it and not running to police every thred in the movies or every newcomer thread that appears in the Books.<P>now all etiquette aside...<P> R. : <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never once said, "Shut up, folks!" I was simply questioning why we should be so hard on PJ for creating the work he created.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those who feel PJ erred gtreatly have given you numerous points as to why we are hard on him, most people who are disturbed by the movies in whole or in part have been able and willing to explain why they feel PJ desrves a hard time. I am curous as to why you are still asking...<P>also regarding the bastardizing comment; althogh the word sounds harsh, as my dictionary reference shows, it accurately expressed my opinions. <P>I find this thread has ceased to discuss and now has become self-consuming, so I will give it a rest as I have said everything I have to say, and as far as I can tell others seem to as well.<P>happy readings [ and viewings]<P>lindil out<p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I find this thread has ceased to discuss and now has become self-consuming, so I will give it a rest as I have said everything I have to say, and as far as I can tell others seem to as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup.<P>H.C.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Well, I have to try to clear up some misunderstandings before I stop.<P>Rindowen<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> NOW are we all on the same page? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sadly, no. And I think it will be a very long time before we are, if we ever are. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Willie, if you read through all the thread, you will notice that I never once said, "I think you should stop complaining!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never said you did. I was referring (in general, and I do mean in general) to many different threads and many different people. Sorry if it seemed like I was talking about you, I wasn't. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Willie is trying to speak for everyone here, and THAT is not allowed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I was not speaking for everyone. Ok, I tooke the liberty of speaking for some, but I assure that i am probably right. I was refering to 'us' in this quote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I just remembered another thing. This thread is a discussion about why you do NOT like Arwen in the movies, so none of us want to hear why you do like her in the movies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>as those, like me, who come into this thread to discuss why they did not like Arwen. After all, that is what the thread is about and allows, not why you did like Arwen in the movies. And if one of those who I considered 'us' in the quote above disagrees with what I said for them, then they have every right to point out my mistake and even humiliate me if they choose to. But, that does not give you any right whatsoever to say that. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And PJ, I believe, wanted to get his greedy little hands on some of the profits.... ...That's one way I view him as a sell out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok, saying, 'greedy little hands' is just a pinch disrespectful. It may be true also. It is not outwardly and fully disrespectful. And saying I view him as a sell out is not disrespectful at all. That is my opinion. And that also could be true. It is not disrespecting PJ. And anyways, it is alright to be disrespectful to PJ here at the Downs, however, we cannot be disrespectful to each other. So, that is not a fine example at all, as you have claimed. And if you think there are so many out here, then choose another. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In that same entry, Willie said that he could have predicted exactly what Jackson would do, in terms of selling out. THIS is the type of criticism that I was trying to call out in my original post! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I assume by 'entry', you mean post. Well, no I did not. Do not put words in my mouth. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Criticizing vs. Insulting... It's actually THAT simple! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wouldn't say it's that simple.<P>But anyways, this discussion seems to be going nowhere. This argument has lost it's thrill and now it's boring and tedious to keep posting. I said all I need to say about Arwen (at least for the moment). And I have said enough about rules and that stuff. It's been fun. You can continue it if you want, but I'm leaving this thread for now, bye.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ummmmm, if everyone's gone, can I turn the light off??

[lindil]

But wait, no, no, NO!!<P>Estelyn, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea for an addendum to what is contained rule-wise in the sticky at the top of the forum would be a good way to wind this up?<P>It would be great to have it in the sticky itself, but even here would be great [ I won't forget the name of this thread!] if it needs to referenced again, which seems likely as PJ has 2 extended versions and a regular release to go .<P>There seems to be doubt or confusion as to the 'then let me see you make your own Movie' comment and "stop, criticising PJ/ complaining" decisions.<P><BR>much thanks,<P>-L<p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Arwen Imladris]

Just keep in mind that it could have been worse! I could have been Arwen! *everyone flees in terror*. No seriously, <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1044178989" TARGET=_blank>here</A> is an article about what ended up on the cutting room floor.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> his cousin said Arwen was indeed at the Battle of Hornburg. Arwen was supposed to have run away with Asfaloth from the Elves going to the Havens and joined the Rohirrim riders with Gandalf. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Ummmmm, if everyone's gone, can I turn the light off?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*Calling back from outside the door* Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Aredhelaran]

I was dissapointed at first when I saw how expanded Arwen't role was, but once I saw her, I forgave most of it. YOu can't make movies that are exactly like teh books.

[Lush]

lindil, my dear, I will try to be brief.<P>Basically, I want you to try and understand the fact that while other Tolkien readers and non-readers may respond to the movies in different ways, that does not necessarily make some "wrong" and some "right." In a debate like this, there are no winners and no losers, because it all comes down to personal issues that influence our reactions to Peter Jackson. The fact that you have read the books over twenty times should not give you some form of advantage in this debate, especially since you have not provided any concrete evidence that you understand Tolkien's vision better that Peter Jackson, his crew, Liv Tyler (well, Liv's understanding of Tolkien can easily be questioned, but she's just an actress anyway, judging from her interviews she does not appear to care a whole lot) and those of us who don't mind the morphing of her role in the least. <P>As far as I can tell, you are lamenting the mere fact that Arwen replaced Glorfindel, drew a sword, etc., etc. You have every right to do that, but I fail to see how your opinions should somehow matter more than those of Rindowen's, just because you've been reading the books since the 70's. If anything, I can understand where you're coming from, especially the emotional aspect of the issue, but I wish you would accept where people such as myself are coming from as well. <P>And, I want you to remember that, while we are all in here fuming, Peter Jackson & Co. are laughing all the way to the bank. It doesn't make them a bunch of bad people. They know how to make a buck, while most of us don't. And there is nothing morally wrong with that, as long as they're not going out of their way to hurt someone...Have the movies actually hurt you personally in any way? Hell, I felt pretty hurt when "Enemy at the Gates" portrayed the Russian offensive as a bunch of vodka guzzling dingbats, but I ended up laughing about it and moving on. Maybe you ought to do the same? I doubt that PJ made the movies just to "pi** off lindil." Or littleman, or Willie, or anyone else for that matter. He did the best he could while still keeping his paycheck (same goes for the people who made "Enemy at the Gates," though their storytelling talents did not match Jackson's in the least). He didn't owe anything to you guys personally, I think you're mature enough to acccept that, and stop troubling yourself so much. <P>Furthermore,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Neither of us can prove either way our point defintively, but Cleopatra was not, i think the best rejoinder, because it had not previously been voted Book/Author of the Century and read by Millions of current Movie-goers when they were young.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's perfectly fine. What about "The Bonfire of the Vanities" then? Both versions of "Lolita" (4th on <I>some</I> list of the greatest works of literature of this century, that as far as I recall, didn't even have the LOTR in the top ten, but had <I>Ulysses</I> as number one, and that's saying a lot right there.)? "Anna Karenina" (surely you would agree that Leo Tolstoy is relavtively "decent" competition for Tolkien)? <P>And remember, the above films didn't have to have <I>half</I> the budget that the LOTR needed to look decent. <P>The point I am trying to make is that, once again, there are no guarantees, especially not in the movie business. Had Peter Jackson's films not delivered, and believe me, if they did not appeal to those who never read Tolkien, they wouldn't have, not on the same level that would have justified the project in the first place, New Line would have been in serious financial trouble, and a lot of talented people would have been in trouble as well. <P>Therefore, with all that, and my previous points in mind, I say to hell with going for each other's throats over Arwen's character, and to hell with judging Peter Jackson, a man none of us (as far as I know) have ever met.<P>[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]<p>[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Diamond18]

Before this thread is closed as "being discussed to death", allow me to humbly offer up this <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001816" TARGET=_blank>link</A> to a thread in which I offer a new and (as far as I know) unaddressed dimension to the Arwen/Glorfindel matter. <P>And I quite agree, Lush. Cheers.

[Yavanna Kementari]

IMHO, I think that adding Arwen, showed the audience the romantic side Sir J.R.R. Tolkien wished to portray between Arwen and Aragorn. I think Liv Tyler did an excellent job. I also like Glorfindel in the book.<BR>But because there is SO MUCH to LotR ( books) that P.J. had a challenge bringning romance to the movie. I would rather have Aragorn with Arwen then wwith GLorfindel <BR>LOL Any way, why complain, what has been done is done Enjoy the Movie or the books as you wish -(~<~> Yavanna