Frodo or the Ring?

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 286</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm. . .

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As an evidence may be used episode at Rauros - Gandalf's ability's maximum was a voice than, not a vision.<hr></blockquote>Ah, but since there were no bystanders to observe this incident, we can't say that for sure. In the incidences of visions cited, Sam, a bystander, sees the visions, not Frodo.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Is not it obvious that Frodo changed while on his way to Mordor? Hobbit not daring to throw ring into the hearth and one unable to toss it into the Cracks of Doom are different persons. <hr></blockquote>Frodo's daring or courage is not at issue -- he couldn't throw the Ring into the fire in Bag End because of the influence the Ring had already gained over him. To be sure, Frodo changed and grew during his journey. I'm suggesting, however, that Gandalf didn't expect or plan for Frodo to transform to such an extent that he would be able to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom, where the power of the Ring to overcome the will of its bearer would be immeasurably greater. And indeed, at the critical moment, he wasn't able.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> On the backround of the apparently &quot;black&quot; land hobbit of the good will seemed white, of course, even if he himself looked grey in the place not so corrupted (both, corruption and coulors of the visions are meant in spiritual way - Ithilien, if corrupted by orcs phisycally, was still free of Sauron's will)
So, shortly speaking, visions were made up by the ring, but stuff used to build them up was Frodo himself, for inside he really became &quot;Tall Stern Lord&quot; despite that his body remained that of a halfling.<hr></blockquote>If I read this correctly, then I think I disagree. Are you saying that the Ring showed Frodo in each vision as he truly was? In Ithilien, a power cloaked in grey whose full glory had not yet been revealed, then later, at Mt. Doom, as a fully matured Frodo? I don't buy it. For starters, Frodo is less in control of his own will at Mt. Doom than he is in Ithilien. After he pronounces his curse/threat on Gollum, he seems to snap out of daze, as if he was momentarily not in control of himself.

Doesn't it seem more than mere coincidence that the imagery of the visions parallels the imagery reflecting Gandalf's evolution?<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Therefore, Gandalf, as well as Frodo (as was stated by Mithadan, if I am not mistaken) was relying on faith rather than on his wisdom or courage, and that is, in a way. <hr></blockquote>This may be true. Perhaps Eru is the one working things from behind the scenes. But then why does Gandalf say he was not surprised by Frodo at the Council? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Frodo (on that occasion) used it's power to restrain Gollum, which is another part of his becoming stern tall lord - one able to control the ring in a measure, not only dessapear when uninvited visitors (money-borrowers) knocked at hte front door<hr></blockquote>I still dispute the notion that Frodo used the Ring's power on either occasion. Gollum is cowed in each case but not broken or dominated.

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