One hand tied behind their backs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mithadan*** · 12-28-2000, 05:22 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 411</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: One hand tied behind their back

Before Moria, Gandalf gives good advise, lights fires with his staff and uses it as a lightbulb. After Moria, he cures Theoden and beams of light issue from his hands to drive off the Nazgul. I suppose that we don't truly know the extent of his powers pre-Moria (what did happen that night on Weathertop?) but the visceral impression is that he came back more powerful. This position is supported in Letters, p202 (#156)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The 'wizards, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater." <hr></blockquote>

Re: limitations on the power of the Istari by embodying them in limited physical forms, same page:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "the purpose was to limit and hinder their power on the physical plane..." <hr></blockquote>

The above also implies that without physical form their raw power is greater.

Finally, on the issue of unassisted flight or incorporeal travel,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olorin = Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate..." <hr></blockquote>
Letters, p.411 (#325) (discussing ability to travel from the West to ME)

The last suggests (strongly) that the Balrog couldn't fly without wings unless it abandoned its body. Establishes the same for Gandalf, et al. So, I have to abandon my "devil's advocate" position. To fly, Gandalf or Sauron needed an eagle or some other device or animal and the Balrog needed wings. Which is not to say this proves the beastie had wings. Only LoTR does that (couldn't resist).

I should have just looked it up (not easy in the old edition of Letters, lousy index) and stuck it in under the Balrog thread. Sorry guys. On various points all of us were wrong (unless Letters isn't 'Canon' [groan]).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

12-28-2000, 05:22 PM	#7
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 411</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: One hand tied behind their back Before Moria, Gandalf gives good advise, lights fires with his staff and uses it as a lightbulb. After Moria, he cures Theoden and beams of light issue from his hands to drive off the Nazgul. I suppose that we don't truly know the extent of his powers pre-Moria (what did happen that night on Weathertop?) but the visceral impression is that he came back more powerful. This position is supported in Letters, p202 (#156) <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> "The 'wizards, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater." <hr></blockquote> Re: limitations on the power of the Istari by embodying them in limited physical forms, same page: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "the purpose was to limit and hinder their power on the physical plane..." <hr></blockquote> The above also implies that without physical form their raw power is greater. Finally, on the issue of unassisted flight or incorporeal travel, <blockquote>Quote:*<hr> "The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olorin = Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate..." <hr></blockquote> Letters, p.411 (#325) (discussing ability to travel from the West to ME) The last suggests (strongly) that the Balrog couldn't fly without wings unless it abandoned its body. Establishes the same for Gandalf, et al. So, I have to abandon my "devil's advocate" position. To fly, Gandalf or Sauron needed an eagle or some other device or animal and the Balrog needed wings. Which is not to say this proves the beastie had wings. Only LoTR does that (couldn't resist). I should have just looked it up (not easy in the old edition of Letters, lousy index) and stuck it in under the Balrog thread. Sorry guys. On various points all of us were wrong (unless Letters isn't 'Canon' [groan]). --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.